The Senedd met by video-conference at 11:00 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome, all, to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I need to set out a few points. A Plenary meeting held by video-conference in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda. I would also remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting, as do the time limits on questions that will be applied to this meeting also.

1. Questions to the First Minister

So, the first item on our agenda this morning is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd.

The Dental Profession

Caroline Jones AC: 1. How is the Welsh Government supporting the dental profession in Wales during the coronavirus pandemic? OQ55332

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Caroline Jones for that question. We support the profession through implementation of a safe, phased, risk-based re-establishment of dental services. All the actions we take to reduce the risk of community transmission also help protect dental teams and patients from coronavirus in Wales.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, First Minister. The dental profession, like all sectors of the Welsh economy, is suffering deeply as a result of lockdown. While the move out of the red alert level will bring some small relief, it will not be enough to support many practices, and we cannot afford to lose a single dental practice in Wales. I've been contacted by many practices, often sole proprietors, who are worried that the loss of business will result in them going out of business and even losing their homes. First Minister, what financial support, beyond the payment of 90 per cent of annual contract value, are you offering dentists in Wales to ensure that we don't lose any practices? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we support dental practices in Wales in a whole range of different ways. I think it's important to mention the word 'patience' when we're talking about dental practices, because it is the safety of patients and staff that has to remain at the top of our agenda. There are a number of dental practices that are inherently risky where coronavirus is concerned, becausethe use of aerosol techniques, which are inevitable and necessary in dentistry, create particular risks.
We are supporting NHS dentists by making sure that 80 per cent of NHS contracts were paid between April and June. We'll be paying 90 per cent of those contracts from July. We're supporting those contracts and those contractors with PPE. So, in a whole range of ways, we are supporting the profession.The main way we can support them is by making sure that we have a staged approach that resumes dental activity as fast as we can as safely as we can, and that is the path we will continue, alongside the profession, to pursue in Wales.

Angela Burns AC: Good morning, First Minister. You mentioned the aerosol-generating procedures. My understanding is that, going forward, Welsh Government are promoting a one-hour gap between those procedures to allow air exchange in surgeries, but the science behind this is negligible. Europe looked at 15 minutes between aerosol-generating procedures, but they've since dropped that because the science is so non-existent on that particular process.On a day like today, when it's very still, hot and muggy, how do you—? First of all, where is the science for that, First Minister? Where can I go and reference that? And secondly, how do you actually propose that dentists are able to implement that change of air, that air exchange, for an hour? Because just opening the windows on a day like today simply wouldn't do it.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, neither I nor the Member are experts in the science that lies behind safe dental practice. For that, we have to rely on the people who are the experts, and that's why we have a chief dental officer in Wales. I spoke yesterday with Dr Colette Bridgman about the advice she is providing to the profession and how that advice is derived from discussions with leading members of the profession. We have to rely on the people who are employed as the most senior people in their field to give us advice. They keep that advice under regular review. If they feel it is safe to extend the range of activity, they will bring it forward. Dr Bridgman acted on Friday of last week, alongside the other changes that we announced. She lifted the red alert categorisation of dentistry in Wales to allow more procedures to be undertaken more quickly. But we can't proceed other than by relying upon the advice that those people, who are much better placed than me, and, with respect, much better placed than the Member, to understand the science and to give that advice, and that is what we will continue to do.

Rhianon Passmore AC: First Minister, Wales's chief dental officer Dr Colette Bridgman has stated that there will be a phased and careful approach to the reopening of full routine dental services in Wales and stated that she is absolutely alive to the concerns of a prolonged period of inactivity of services for people's oral hygiene. Indeed, Wales's chief dental officer is on record as saying that the Welsh Government would keep timelines under constant review. So, First Minister, with Wales's success across the UK nations at keeping the reproduction number and growth rate of the spread of COVID-19 low, what measures can Welsh Government take to ensure that dental practices across Wales are equipped with the requisite hand sanitisers, masks, gloves, personal protective equipment and infection and prevention control resources so that they can continue to reopen when circumstances safely permit?
And will, also, the First Minister commit to my constituents in Islwyn that dentistry care will be seen as a priority area of focus for the Welsh Government as a vital part of the Welsh national health service, offering, as it was, to Wales's Labour Aneurin Bevan?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Rhianon Passmore for that, and I thank her for drawing attention to the way that things have been done in Wales. Unlike England or Scotland, dental practices in Wales have been able to remain open throughout the pandemic for urgent face-to-face care, and that's in addition to the urgent dental centres we have had open. And, of course, we work very closely with those colleagues who are contractors in the national health service. Those dentists who choose to work within the national health service have all the benefits of that, and that includes provision of the sorts of resources that Rhianon Passmore identified in her question.
There are many dental practices that choose not to be part of the public service here in Wales and they cannot expect to be able to choose not to be part of the service and then to have all the benefits of being in the service. If you are a private practitioner in a private business, then you have responsibilities to secure your own supplies of many of the things you need in order to be able to meet the regulatory standards that you will still have to observe.
And I'm very happy to provide a commitment to the Member's constituents in Islwyn and across Wales that dentistry is a priority service for us. NHS dentistry is a priority for us. The health Minister issued a written statement yesterday explaining how we will reopen dentistry in a way that is safe for staff and safe for patients, and that is the path that we will sustain in Wales.

Supporting Local Media

Mike Hedges AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on the support provided to local media by the Welsh Government in order to keep residents informed during the Covid-19 pandemic? OQ55303

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges for that question. Llywydd, the Welsh Government has supported both local print and broadcast media during the pandemic. Paid advertising has been placed as part of our 'Keep Wales Safe' campaign. Direct grant assistance has been provided through the independent community journalism fund, and we have worked with Ofcom to ensure that Welsh outlets have benefited from the community radio fund.

Mike Hedges? Mike Hedges, your microphone.

Mike Hedges AC: I'll unmute myself again—sorry. Thank you, First Minister. The media has been crucial for coverage of both the good and bad news in these challenging times, and, sadly, the coverage of lives lost has not been limited to coronavirus, but also we have seen the shocking killing of George Floyd in America and the horrific knife attack in Reading over the weekend.
During the floods earlier this year, and during the coronavirus lockdown, local radio stations such as Swansea Sound, and newspapers such as the South Wales Evening Post have kept residents informed of what's going on. As the First Minister is aware, the Sunday morning breakfast show on Swansea Sound allows local people to question politicians and also express their points of view. Will the First Minister join me and politicians across the Chamber in calling on the owners of Swansea Sound to keep local programmes andlocal presenters for the benefit of the people of south-west Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Mike Hedges for that. He makes a very important point about the significance of local media in making sure that local residents are properly informed, not just of COVID-19, but of that wider range of things. Indeed, in Wales, people will have been thinking of the family and friends of people who were killed in that outrage in Reading at the weekend, and local media will have played a very important part in explaining to that local community the nature of that event.
Llywydd,I've a very warm memory of joining Mike Hedges early one September morning to go and take listeners'questions at Swansea Sound. I remember being very impressed by the relaxed professionalism of the presenter there, Kev Johns, and, indeed, the alertness of Swansea Sound listeners early on in the morning, in phoning in to put questions to us.So, I'm aware, of course, that Swansea Sound has been part of Bauer'spurchase of 56 different radio stations across the United Kingdom. My understanding is that no format change request has been received by Ofcom from that company for Swansea Sound, and that means that the station, in whatever future name or arrangement it has, will continue to be required to fulfil the original format, and that includes commitments relating to the Welsh language and local news and information.
Llywydd, I have participated in quite a large number of the 80 press conferences that the Welsh Government has participated in during the coronavirus crisis. About half of the participants have been local media, including Swansea Sound, and they have provided an essential service during the crisis, just in the way that Mike Hedges described.

David Melding AC: First Minister, I think this is a very important question. Now, I understand that nine community news organisations have directly received a grant from Welsh Government, and you've mentioned the role of procurement in advertising and public information. I also think that local authorities could do a lot in this area. It is really a vital service, as you, indeed, said, and we have to be aware that some of the traditional news providers are now under considerable strain and we risk losing capacity and some very valuable and important local jobs if we don't, at this time of crisis, give fuller support to the local media sector.

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree with what David Melding has said. We've been glad to have been able to re-purpose funding that remained in the community journalism fund. It's been over £76,000, and a range of outlets in Wales have benefited from that. The community radio fund is a UK fund, and we've supported stations in Wales in making successful applications to it. There is a public interest in making sure, of course, that there is a vibrant local media in Wales. It has to be done carefully, because it must be entirely free of any suggestion that there is interference in any editorial decisions that the reporting of news would rely upon, but I think we've managed to strike that balance and want to go on supporting both by the access we offer to those publications and broadcast outlets, and directly, where we are able to do that.

Siân Gwenllian AC: My question is on the Welsh-medium print sector. I've been asking your Government how much use is made, in sharing information about the crisis, of the Welsh-medium print media. I've asked for expenditure figures, but I am still awaiting those official figures, unfortunately. If you could provide those, I would be very grateful.
But, from my own research,the situation is very disappointing indeed. For example, only one advertisement, worth around £800, has appeared in our only Welsh-medium weekly since the beginning of the pandemic. First Minister, will you ensure that your Government makes full use of the print media in order to convey important messages to the people of Wales, and will you ensure that the Welsh-medium print media is included fully in your publicity campaigns from here on in?

Mark Drakeford AC: Of course, Llywydd, those people who receive their news through the medium of the Welsh language are important to us, and the services available to them are also important. We do seek to support them, and we seek to support them in the print sector also. We are spending in order to assist the sector to continue with the important work that they do. I'm sure that people here will be working hard on the questions that Siân Gwenllian has tabled, along with a number of other questions that we're dealing with, and when those figures are available, we will make them available and share them. But generally speaking, of course we want to support the sector, and support it in an appropriate manner, and work with everything else that we're doing to promote the Welsh language.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The first set of questions is from the leader of the Conservatives, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, last week your Government took the decision to resume non-essential retail activity in Wales but kept its 5-mile travel rule, meaning that many families across Wales are still unable to reunite with their loved ones. As more and more people return to work and interact safely with colleagues and members of the public, last week's announcement was a prime opportunity to consider scrapping the Welsh Government's 5-mile travel rule. Non-essential businesses have been allowed to resume trading, and as people are able to travel more than 5 miles to visit a garden centre, it still begs the question why they cannot see their loved ones. Therefore, can you tell us, First Minister, what specific scientific evidence do you have as a Government to keep the 5-mile rule in place?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, every time I answer a question I have to correct Members. To begin with, I think it's just a mistake, but when I have to correct it time after time, I begin to think that it's done deliberately. The Member knows perfectly well that there is no rule of the sort that he describes. If it was a rule, there would be a regulation. There is no regulation. The regulation says stay local. Five miles is advice to people as to what 'stay local' might mean, and it would be very helpful if the leader of the opposition were to be clearer in his questioning so that people don't get the wrong impression. People must stay local; they must interpret that in their own localities.
We have retained the 5-mile rule for another two weeks. If everything is as we hope it will be by the start of July, we will be able to confirm that that will no longer apply in Wales. It has been a very important part of our armoury to prevent the spread of the virus from one community to another. Mr Davies represents a constituency in the far south-west of Wales where people have been very anxious about visitors from beyond that part of Wales, from places where the virus has had a more virulent spread, coming and bringing that virus with them. Because we have had a 'stay local' rule in Wales, places like Pembrokeshire have been very much shielded from the impact of coronavirus. There's the success of our policy, and it's felt directly by the Member's own constituents.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, you can dress this up as much as you want, and you've just said there isn't a 5-mile rule—if that is the case, why on earth include 5 miles in the guidance in the first place? It's quite clear your 5-mile rule continues to cause immeasurable anguish to so many families across Wales. You had an opportunity last week to give families some hope that they could start to see their loved ones safely, and complying with social distancing regulations.
Now, yesterday we saw further restrictions lifted in other parts of the UK, where the decision has been made to relax the social distancing guidance in England from 2m to 1m. Our social distancing regulations were rightly introduced here in Wales at the start of this pandemic in order to help limit the spread of the virus. However, as the R ratecontinues to have fallen to this level, it's right to reassess these regulations. Your colleague the Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer, said he welcomed the statement overall, adding that he believes the UK Government is trying to do the right thing and in that he supports them. Given that the World Health Organization already recommends a distance of at least 1m, can you confirm what assessment the Welsh Government has made of the impact of relaxing the social distancing regulations, and what discussions are you having with professionals and, indeed, colleagues regarding this matter?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, to return to the Member's first point, I do hope that he is advising his constituents that it is perfectly possible in Wales today for people who have a compassionate reason for doing so to travel more than a local distance in order to see people who need that visit. It would be a great shame if—[Inaudible.]—about that, because the people in the circumstances that he described ought to be able to act in accordance with that ability to make a compassionate visit where that is necessary. That's available to people in Wales today, as it has been since the changes were made.
In relation to changes made across our border, I look forward to seeing the evidence on which those changes were made. I spoke yesterday morning to Michael Gove, the Secretary of State in the Cabinet Office, and he promised that the devolved administrations would see all the evidence that the UK Government has used in coming to its conclusions. That evidence had not arrived by the end of yesterday, but we certainly hope to see it today.
In Wales the message remains: stay 2m apart. That is the safe way to behave. The science we have seen is the science from SAGE that says that if you halve the distance, the risk increases somewhere between two and five times greater than if you stay at a 2m distance. That is the science; the Member was interested in the science when it concerned him. That's the science in relation to the 2m rule. If because the transmission of the disease is falling in Wales we are able to make some exceptions in some sectors, provided it is safe to do so, and put mitigating measures in place, then of course we will consider that very carefully.
I know that sectors in England are waiting today to see the guidance as to how they will be able to use the advice that they were given yesterday in a practical way. We, too, will look forward to seeing that. If it is possible, always using public health as our primary test to reduce the 2m rule by exception, then we will see what we are able to do in Wales. But we will do it by looking at the evidence first and making the decision second, not making the decision and then looking for the evidence.

Paul Davies AC: Well, First Minister, one sector that certainly needs some relaxation in its regulations is the tourism and hospitality sector. Now, last week's statement was, of course, welcomed, but it has resulted in more questions than answers, given the correspondence I've received from people with tourism businesses. The tourism and hospitality industry needs clarity, in my view in the form of a detailed strategy both for the short term and, indeed, the longer term—a strategy that clearly marks the Welsh Government's intentions against timescales, funding allocations and support to ensure businesses can remain viable, and a strategy that answers the questions the sector has, not one that results in operators feeling more confused than ever.
First Minister, will you therefore commit to providing a specific strategy for Welsh tourism that outlines exactly how the Welsh Government will support the sector in the short term and provides clarity for the longer term, so that businesses can be confident about the viability of the industry going forward? And given the vulnerability of the hospitality sector in Wales, what immediate action is the Welsh Government taking to support hospitality businesses across the country?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the announcement that we made on Friday does give hope to the tourism industry in Wales. It came as a result of very detailed discussions with the sector itself. The sector must now prepare to demonstrate that it is able to reopen safely in self-contained accommodation, and that it is able to take its local communities with it, because community consent remains a fundamentally important part of the plan for that industry.
When the industry has demonstrated, as I certainly hope it can, that it is able safely to reopen on the terms we have announced so far, then our aim will be to add to the repertoire of things that can be done by that industry. But it is important we do it step by step, that we provide confidence to local communities, by demonstrating that the reopening of the industry can be done in a way that protects the health of staff, visitors and people who live in those localities. And I think the industry understands that very well.
Llywydd, the siren call for clarity in a set of circumstances that are so intrinsically unclear seems to me to miss the point by a very wide mark indeed. If the Member is able to tell me what the state of the virus in Wales will be six weeks, let alone six months, away from where we are today, then we would be able to provide clarity of the sort that he requires, but it's just not possible. And I'm sure he does understand that—that none of us know how this disease will progress as we move through the summer and into the autumn. We do our best to provide forward guidance to sectors in Wales, but to ask us to provide clarity where none is possible would be to provide a false prospectus to those industries, not something helpful of the sort that we wish to provide.

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: First Minister, some residents had only returned to their homes following the February flooding when torrential rain fell in the village of Pentre last week, causing further damage to properties. In 2017 Welsh Ministers were expected to appoint a chair and members to the flood and coastal erosion committee before the end of that year. In reality, members of that committee, which was established under the terms of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, weren't actually announced until March 2019, and their first meeting wasn't held until June 2019. That's two years without adequate focus on your Government's strategy on flooding. First Minister, why did it take so long?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I don't agree with the Member at all that the appointments of that sort have meant that we have not had a very significant focus on flooding, both inland and coastal flooding, in Wales. We have used this Assembly term to bring together the most ambitious funding package for flood and coastal erosion in Wales that we have ever seen, and that, working with our local authorities, we have amended the share of funding between Welsh Government and local authorities—we now fund all of the preparation works for those schemes. And our contribution to grant support to local authorities is to be increased to 85 per cent of the total of those schemes. I think that demonstrates in a good deal more concrete way than some appointments the extent to which we have invested in this field.
I have enormous sympathies, Llywydd, for those individuals that Adam Price mentioned, who have spent the time over the last couple of months getting their homes back in order, only to find them flooded again. But I don't think that, when they are dealing with that, they are worrying about appointments to Government committees.

Adam Price AC: We're in the middle of two immediate crises—health related and economic. But there is a third—the ecological crisis, which we can't afford to ignore. It will have long-term consequences, but there will also be some immediate ones, including an increased risk of flooding. Now, research by the universities of Birmingham and Southampton shows that planting trees around rivers could reduce the height of flooding in towns by up to 20 per cent. Almost a decade ago, the Welsh Government adopted the ambitious and widely lauded target of planting 5,000 hectares of new woodland every year until 2030. This target was dropped to 2,000 hectares. In the last five years, the Welsh Government has achieved an average of just 300 hectares a year, and in the 12 months up until March this year, it achieved just 80 hectares—4 per cent of the target. First Minister, where's the urgency in the climate emergency?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I agree with the Member that the extent of woodland creation in Wales last year was not good enough. It's important to say that, as well as new woodland creation, an enormous effort goes into the restocking of woodland. And, in fact, we planted more trees in restocking woodland last year than we did the year before. But new woodland creationwas not where we would want it to be last year. It is, to some extent, a factor of timings within the rural development programme as to when money is released to the sector. But we have quadrupled the amount of money that we are putting into the Glastir scheme, which has been—. The Glastir woodland creation rounds have been the most successful means we have found to date to stimulate the planting of new trees in Wales. Its budget will now be £8 million, up from £2 million, and I am confident that we will see a significant and necessary increase in new woodland creation in Wales, alongside our ambitions for a national forest.

Adam Price AC: Since 2015, Natural Resources Wales has been suffering a steady decline in funding, while being tasked with more and more responsibilities. NRW is now facing a further cut of £7.5 million. So, the Welsh Government is cutting back on funding, cutting back on tree planting, and seemingly cutting back on its commitment to tackling the climate emergency. Now, what many people in the Rhondda and adjacent communities want now is an immediate and expert-led inquiry to discover why they are enduring persistent flooding and, crucially, what needs to be done to stop this. First Minister, will you commit to such an inquiry today?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, we are not cutting back on tree planting; we are quadrupling our investment in tree planting. And while NRW has inevitably had to bear its share of a decade of austerity—so, it isn't NRW's budget that is being cut year on year; it is the Welsh Government's budget that has been cut year on year since 2010, and I'm afraid no part of the public service can be regarded as wholly immune from that. There will be inquiries. There are legal responsibilities that fall on the local authority and NRW when flooding takes place. And I know that those local players are working very hard already to make sure that we understand why flooding took place again in those parts of the Rhondda very recently, to add that to what our understanding has been of the flooding back in February, and then, when we've had those local investigations concluded, we will use the outcome to make sure that we put further mitigation measures in place.

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the reopening of restaurants, pubs and entertainment venues and a switch from regulation to guidance, saying he would trust in the British people's common sense. Can you confirm that emphasis on British common sense does not apply to Wales and you intend to keep Wales lagging several weeks behind England?
The leader of the opposition here cited the leader of the opposition in Westminster and his general support for the UK Government approach. Similarly, aside from my group, isn't it the case that there has been cross-party support here for the different approach enabled by devolution in Wales?Unlike the much discussed five-mile guidance, the 2m rule is enshrined in law, with all business in Wales having to nominate someone to be liable for prosecution. It was endorsed and entrenched by this Senedd with the support not just of Labour and Plaid Members, but also the votes of Welsh Conservatives. If Members want to follow a UK approach and reopen our economy, don't they need to vote for it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Prime Minister's announcements yesterday were announcements for England. This Senedd must accept its responsibilities, in the way the Member says, for making regulations for Wales. We will continue to do so in a way that puts the health of our population at the forefront of the way that we bring proposals to the floor of the Senedd and seek to secure support for them. There is a minority—it's represented by the Member—who wish that they lived somewhere else and that decisions were made differently. We are confident that we have the support not just of the breadth of the Senedd behind the approach we are taking, but that we have the support of Welsh people for it as well.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, the fact that some people may be in a minority or disagree with your approach does not mean they want to live elsewhere. Today, we vote on the supplementary budget, with vast appropriationsand reallocations of funds. But, in your Government amendment to a later debate today, you suggest it's not enough and the UK Government must urgently remove fiscal restrictions that prevent Welsh Government responding effectively to the pandemic.
But isn't it your Government's use of exorbitant powers you already have in the field of health that is causing a decline in Welsh revenues relative to England? What is the impact of harsher, longer lockdown in Wales on Welsh revenues and those rates of income tax? What further decline in land transaction tax receipts will we now see, given the English housing market reopened six weeks ago, yet you continue to ban house viewings here, except for empty properties? Given the consequent fiscal hole, how long will it be, First Minister, before you use the powers that the Conservatives granted to raise income tax by an unlimited amount?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Member always manages to turn a sensible question into a piece of nonsense, as he did right at the end. So, you can be quite sure that there is no such proposal anywhere, other than in his own mind.
The points that we are making to the Treasury are just a series of sensible points. We want to have the ability to convert capital into revenue, at a time when the pressure on our revenue budgets is like it has never been before. We want greater flexibility to be able to use the Welsh reserve in a way that would allow us to respond to the conditions of a global pandemic. These are sensible measures that would allow us to manage the pressures we are under in a way that responds to them within our own resources. It's time that the rules at the Treasury caught up with the nature of devolution, and let's hope that we are able to use this opportunity to accelerate some of the thinking that has, I think, remained stuck in previous ways of doing things for too long.

Before I call the next question, and in line with my role to ensure the proper conduct of Senedd business, and to remind us all that we are meeting today remotely and virtually, I am aware that one Member is in the Chamber and filming himself and broadcasting to that point on social media. I will ask for that Member to be removed now from the virtual Parliament, and we will be closing the Chamber in due course. My advice to Mr McEvoy is not to play games with your Parliament.
Question 3—David Rowlands.

COVID-19

David J Rowlands AC: 3. What assessment has the First Minister made of the effectiveness of the actions taken by the Welsh Government during the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ55329

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question. The effectiveness of all our actions is assessed through the lens of public health, keeping people and communities safe in Wales during the pandemic.The three-week review cycle means that everything we do is assessed in the light of the most recent available evidence.

David J Rowlands AC: I thank the First Minister for that answer. I do understand that there can be no real definitive answers until an inquiry has been convened and the report produced, and that will, of course, take time. But I would at this time ask the First Minister to put together an interim report, one that would allow corrective actions to be put in place quickly, based on the knowledge gained over the last few months.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, let me begin, Llywydd, by agreeing with David Rowlands—it's very important to learn from the experience that we are having, and we are doing our very best to do that every single day as we think over the events of recent weeks and plan for the challenges that lie ahead. But I do want to explain to him—and I know that he is likely to understand—that the Welsh Government is absolutely flat out still in dealing with the crisis that is in front of us, just this week dealing with outbreaks of coronavirus in north Wales, looking at the impact on the meat processing sector more generally, continuing to make sure that we provide testing in our care home sector, that we look at further opportunities we may be able to offer people in Wales to resume freedoms that they've been denied during the crisis. All the people we have—and the huge majority of Welsh Government employees are not working in the normal way; they are still working from home—are being deployed still to focus on the immediate challenges we face to prepare for the coming autumn and winter. The moment will come, as David Rowlands said, where there will be an opportunity to stand back and do a formal review of these things. Informally, we learn all the time and apply that learning, but until we are in calmer waters, where we are not every day having to deal with the impact of this crisis in the lives of Welsh people and Welsh communities, that moment has not yet come.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, First Minister, for that response. One measure I welcome in recent weeks over the COVID regulations is obviously the opening of schools next week. I declare an interest as a member of a local authority, and, in particular, our local authority has issued guidance to say that they are unable to take the opportunity to open schools on the fourth week, because the contractual negotiations haven't been concluded with the unions by the Welsh Government. Do you think that is a fair reason to have schools closed across Wales— because Welsh Government have failed to conclude contractual negotiations with the unions?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, my colleague Kirsty Williams will answer a topical question on this matter later this afternoon. Let me just repeat that the advice that the Welsh Government provided was that, if it were possible to create four weeks of resumed education in Wales, the case for doing that was strong. We always recognised from the beginning that there was a contractual issue in the fourth week, which is why we proposed that, for teachers who worked in the fourth week, there would be an extra week of holiday restored to them at the October half term. But, as the Welsh Local Government Associationsaid in welcoming our proposals, it was for them to take the proposals and put them into operation in the different circumstances that each local authority in Wales faces. And that's the way it has to be, because they are the employers, not the Welsh Government.
There will be children in Wales who will be in places where four weeks of school opening is possible, and I'm very glad that those local education authorities able to do so have been able to reach that agreement. Other local authorities will face different challenges, different circumstances, and come to different conclusions. That's inevitable in the way that things are done.

The Hospitality Sector

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on support for the hospitality sector in Wales in light of COVID-19? OQ55342

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. The package of support for the hospitality sector in Wales is the most generous in the United Kingdom. Thousands of businesses have benefited from 100 per cent small business rate relief and the Welsh Government's economic resilience fund. In total, over £330 million has been provided to assist the sector during the pandemic.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. North Wales tourism businesses and organisations have said that, if tourism was allowed to open today, 10,500 tourism sector jobs could be lost in north Wales, and they cite your Government and you to be destroying this vital industry. To refute those claims, what support will you make available to businesses that cannot open on 13 July? Self-contained accommodation businesses and ensuite hotels desperately need a vision, with guidance on how to safely prepare. Will you provide this? Will you clarify exactly what you mean by self-contained accommodation, working with their local communities? Will you clearly state whether campsites with shared facilities can prepare to open if they close these? First Minister, your leadership on this issue has never been under any such scrutiny, and, I have to say, with much criticism. Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank the Member for those questions. Of course the actions of Government are under scrutiny—so they should be. That's why we have answered questions on the floor of the Senedd every single week during this pandemic and will continue to do so.
As far as the self-contained sector within the tourism industry is concerned, of course we work with the sector to provide guidance and to answer their questions. It's guidance that is providedwith the sector itself. We've been working with UKHospitality Cymru and the Wales Tourism Alliance to make sure that their best practice guidance for working safely in the visitor economy is there for everybody in preparation for the lifting of restrictions. Visit Wales has hosted three consultation events with over 100 representatives from the four tourism forums across Wales, as well as with industry representative bodies. The purpose of giving people notice that they should prepare is to make sure that, when questions arise, there is time to resolve those questions with the sector. And I know the sector is very much looking forward to being able to reopen and to do it in a way that is safe, in a way that safeguards the reputation of the sector, and when the sector can demonstrate that it has been able to do that successfully, then we will want to allow it to do more.
But there's a real reputational issue here for the sector, and to rush at it in the way that the Member suggests, without any proper preparation to open campsites with shared facilities, that will not be happening—let me assure her of that—in the first wave, because we know that coronavirus thrives in shared facilities. Why would we put the reputation of this really important industry in Wales at risk by allowing unsafe practices to take place? We won't do that. We will proceed in the way that we have set out: carefully, step-by-step, demonstrating success, allowing more to happen when that success has been demonstrated, in a way that will safeguard the long-term reputation of this vitally important industry in Wales.

Helen Mary Jones AC: The First Minister will be aware of the announcement this week by Castell Howell, a very important food business in my region, that they are consulting about redundancies. This is of course partly because they have depended on the hospitality sector as their customers. Will the First Minister commit today to ensuring that his Government and his officials work closely with the company to see if there's any way in which the redundancies can be avoided, and will he commit in future to reviewing Welsh Government procurement policies, so that companies like Castell Howell may be able to benefit further from them in future?

Mark Drakeford AC: I'm very happy to do both of those things, Llywydd. Our officials will certainly work carefully with that very important company and we have an ambition to spend more of the Welsh pound on Welsh businesses. Some very important things have been achieved in sir Gârin particular in recent times, in getting local food supplies into local communities.
The UK Government has a part to play here too, Llywydd. Its furlough scheme must not be a blunt instrument. Where there are parts of the economy that cannot reopen because of the longer term impacts of coronavirus, then it's important to those sectors that the furlough scheme—which I understand will have to be adapted; I understand it must be withdrawn from parts of the economy that are able to resume, but where that is not the case, and hospitality is certainly part of that, with the knock-on effects into other industries—then the furlough scheme needs to remain an important part in the armoury of the UK Government, supplemented by what we are able to do through our economic resilience fund, to go on supporting sectors and really important businesses like Castell Howell, so they are able still to have a successful future.

The Economy of the Heads of the Valleys

Alun Davies AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on the economy of the Heads of the Valleys? OQ55336

Mark Drakeford AC: The appointment on Friday of a preferred bidder for the construction of the £500 million sections 5 and 6 of the Heads of the Valleys road is an important milestone in the future of the economy in that part of Wales. It will deliver economic and community benefits in a post-coronavirus recovery period. And of that £500 million, £170 million is expected within the local supply chain alone.

Alun Davies AC: First Minister, I'm grateful for that, and of course we're also still waiting to finish the section from Gilwern to Brynmawr, and I think that will be welcome when that is completed. But we all recognise the human impact of the coronavirus and we know that there's already broad and deep support for the approach the Welsh Government is taking. But we need to continue to provide this support for people for the post-COVID era, and what's going to happen to employment particularly at that time. In Blaenau Gwent, we all know of people who are fearful of losing their jobs; we see the uncertainty around the future of the festival park in Ebbw Vale, and we know that there remains an urgent need to invest in strategic sites, such as on the Rassau or Rhyd-y-Blew. I would therefore ask you to work alongside me and other Members who represent these constituencies, to deliver a jobs plan for the Heads of the Valleys that will secure employment immediately and in the long term.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, thanks to Alun Davies for that important set of questions. He will be pleased to know, and I know his constituents will be, that the Gilwern to Brynmawr section of the Heads of the Valleys road is now 85 per cent completed, despite the real challenges, the geological challenges that there have been in that part of Wales. I'm concerned as he is, I know, about the festival park site in Ebbw Vale, and we're working closely with the local authority there to see what can be done to address the announcements of last week. We continue to progress our plan for the high-tech cluster on the nearby work site and to prepare other sites so that they are in a good position to attract jobs into the Blaenau Gwent area.
But to just respond for a moment, Llywydd, to the general point that Alun Davies made: we should—all of us—be concerned at the jobs impact of coronavirus. I'm thinking of the 30-year experience of some communities in Wales to recover from the 1980s and the deliberate loss of jobs in those communities then; coronavirus isn't a deliberate action of course, but its impact can be profound. And I want to give Alun Davies, and others, an assurance that the Welsh Government will be relentlessly focused during the rest of this Senedd term on doing everything we can to support employment in those areas, so the scarring effect on young people in particular, in particular parts of Wales, is avoided as much as we can possibly do, by harnessing our actions with those of others to support those local economies and those local jobs.

Leanne Wood. Your microphone, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Thank you. First Minister, with news this week that there are 15 people chasing every single job in the Rhondda, and that comes on the back of the news that there are two towns in the top-20 most vulnerable to economic problems following COVID, then it's clear that there needs to be a specific jobs plan for the Rhondda. We've already heard how we need a new, sustainable drainage system, how we need a mass tree planting strategy, and we also need things like renewable energy. Can you please tell us what investment you plan to make in the infrastructure of the Rhondda, and how you intend to reverse the situation whereby people in the Rhondda have been ignored by successive Welsh and UK Governments since the 1980s?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, it's nonsense to suggest that the people of the Rhondda have been ignored; they certainly haven't. And if they have, then she'll be asking herself what she herself has done as the representative of that area to put it right. It wouldn't be a very proud record for me as a representative to stand up and say that my area had been ignored, and it hasn't been—she knows it hasn't been.
But, I want to reply to the substantive and sensible point that she made that, of course, our concerns have to be for those parts of Wales that are particularly vulnerable to an economic downturn. We are working very hard inside the Welsh Government to bring capital money together, and capital projects together, so that if, as we hope, the UK Government responds in the Chancellor's statement in July by putting a new set of investments into infrastructure to create jobs, but to create the conditions of the future, that we are as well placed as we can be to have projects ready to use that money and to use it for the advantage of communities across Wales, with a particular emphasis on those places where the coronavirus impact will be felt the greatest. And that certainly does include the Rhondda, and it certainly does include a number of the measures that Leanne Wood mentioned in the opening part of her question. She can be assured that those things are very much part of our thinking and will continue to be so.

The Tourism Sector

Suzy Davies AC: 6. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s re-opening of the Welsh tourism sector? OQ55318

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that, Llywydd. On 19 June, I indicated that, provided public health considerations allowed, the Welsh Government would lift the 'stay local' requirement on 6 July. At the same time, I signalled to owners of self-contained accommodation to prepare to reopen from 13 July.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, obviously, for your announcement on Friday, although I have to say that the concept of community consent and the use of the word 'bookings' in the narrative haven't really helped the static caravan park owners, or van owners themselves, understand what they can do.
Last week, I asked the economy Minister why non-VAT-registered tourism companies are being treated differently from non-VAT-registered firms or sole traders when it comes to accessing the economic resilience fund. These are microbusinesses unable to access the self-employed support, and not the larger operations to which he made reference in his reply. Some of them are very exciting, novel, green tourism microbusinesses or small bed and breakfasts, and, anecdotally, quite a high proportion of them are run by women. So, could you please revisit this? As, in my view, there is no justification at all for treating two businesses differently on the basis of a registration at Companies House, with one version having a right to support and the other having to go begging to a hardship fund.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, first of all, let me make it clear that static caravans, where they are self-contained, will be able to reopen from 13 July. I’m not absolutely certain that I understand what the problem with 'bookings' is, because people are able to take bookings from 13 July. They need to be aware that that date remains subject to the circulation of the virus at the time. That's inevitable, and that’s exactly the same way that her Government in the United Kingdom has always proceeded. They make announcements, and they make it clear that those things have to be confirmed closer to the time because none of us knows what the state of coronavirus will be in the weeks ahead.
On her point about VAT registration, look, I just have to explain: our aim is to try to get money out to people as fast as possible, and to do so with the least bureaucracy as possible. But, this is public money, and the public have a right to know that there is a level of probity in the way that it is being spent on their behalf. We have used VAT registration as a short cut through a whole series of other checks that we would have had to have made to make sure that people who make applications to us are bona fide. If they have VAT registration, they will already have had to have gone through a number of checks, and we rely on those as part of our probity requirements in handing out public money for proper purposes.
Now, I understand that that has meant that people who are not VAT registered haven’t been able to benefit in the same way, and we’ve worked hard within the second phase of the ERF to try to be able to address that. But, it's there for a proper purpose. It's there for a purpose that Suzy Davies, I think, in other circumstances, would recognise very well: that if you're spending public money, there’s an obligation on you to make sure that you've put at least a minimum amount of checks into the system to make sure that the schemes that we are putting up, very rapidly, aren't taken advantage of by people who just think that, you know, this may be a quick way to get money out of a Government when you are not a proper business at all.

Foster Parents

Mick Antoniw AC: 7. Will the First Minister make a statement on the support provided to foster parents during the coronavirus emergency? OQ55341

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, foster carers make a vital, positive contribution to the lives of looked-after children. I am extremely thankful for their continued dedication during these exceptional times. Foster carers across Wales have risen to some really challenging moments and continue to provide crucial support to some of our most vulnerable young people.

Mick Antoniw AC: First Minister, thank you for that answer. I'd be grateful if you'd join with me in thanking foster parents the length and breadth of Wales for the contribution that they make every day, especially during the emergency. The lockdown has increased pressures on vulnerable families, with job losses and worsening mental health contributing to the potential for family breakdown. So, does the First Minister share my concern at the report from Barnardo's that the number of children in Wales needing foster care has risen by 45 per cent, whilst the number of people coming forward as prospective foster parents has halved? Will he indicate how the Welsh Government can help to bridge the gap and recognise the really valuable contribution that foster parents make and support them in the valuable work that they do?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I definitely want to join Mick Antoniw in paying tribute to the work that foster carers do in Wales and have done during the pandemic crisis. Both he and I have been foster parents in the past and know something of both the challenges but also the enormous joys that it can bring.
I read the Barnardo's report. I think it's just important to be clear that the landscape of foster caring in Wales is different to the UK position. In other parts of the United Kingdom, Barnardo's and third sector organisations play a much larger part in the provision of fostering services than they do in Wales. The use of charitable provision providers in Wales, including Barnardo's, is 3 per cent of the total foster care workforce, and that proportion has been falling. Local authorities in Wales continue to provide nearly three quarters of all foster care.
Care Inspectorate Wales has provided a report on foster care activity over April and May of this year. They report very few breakdowns in foster care, a general stability, and a good level of placement availability. So, the report makes very interesting reading. It's important we think about the issues that it raises. I don't think it tells us what is happening in the bulk of foster care across Wales.
Local authorities, I think, have worked hard to support those foster carers. It's interesting to learn from them that the sort of help that foster carers have asked for has not been funding, per se; it has been help with making sure that they have the equipment that children need to learn remotely, it's for socialisation, it's to keep up contact with families of origin where that is part of a plan for that child. Local authorities have worked hard to assist their foster carers in that.
Once again, I just agree with the point that Mick Antoniw has made about the amazing efforts that those families make on behalf of vulnerable children in Wales.

Question 8—John Griffiths.

Your microphone, John—can you just wait until the microphone's on? Carry on.

The Standard of Education

John Griffiths AC: 8. What further action will the Welsh Government take to ensure that the provision of education from September onwards is of a high standard? OQ55330

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government is working with partners to ensure that the best practice of the past three months is adopted more widely in future. Estyn inspectors will visit schools in Wales from September onwards, as part of this system-wide effort.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, there is great concern regarding our children's life chances, particularly those in our most impoverished families. Too few pupils considered vulnerable have returned to school, and working at home has been very variable. It seems the return to school at the end of this month will typically be for a few hours once a week and may not include the extra fourth week. And of course, when the return to school in the autumn term begins, blended learning really must be of a high standard in all our schools—every one of our schools. So, First Minister, what action will Welsh Government take to ensure a Wales-wide response, with schools, unions and local education authorities stepping up to the plate within clear national requirements?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank John Griffiths for that. He is right that too few vulnerable children have come forward during the pandemic period, but we have gone from around 300 children in the very early weeks to over 1,500 in the latest week. So, we've had a steady increase in the number of children coming forward. Reopening all schools on 29 June will be another important step, because we know that vulnerable children are less likely to attend a school that is not their own. There are many reasons for that, and when their own school reopens, with familiar teachers and familiar faces, we are confident we will see more of those children back in education.
But I agree with John Griffiths that September needs to bring with it a very different school experience, and that learning from the success of the last weeks will be very important to that. Because, while variability has been a feature, it has also been a feature that there are many, many schools that have risen very powerfully to the challenge of providing remote learning blended with contact from the school remotely, as well, for children. What we want to do is to make sure that there is a national expectation that all schools learn from the experience of the best and put that to work for the benefit of children and young people from September. And as I said in my original answer, we'll be deploying Estyn as part of that effort to make sure that the fantastic things—and they are fantastic things—that so many heads and teachers have invented to assist children and young people in Wales are understood by the rest of the system, that they are adopted by the rest of the system, and that the education from September onwards is of as high a standard as we can make it in the circumstances that we will face at the time.

Supporting the Economy

Nick Ramsay AC: 9. Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's policies for supporting the economy during the current pandemic? OQ55325

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we're doing all that we can to mitigate the effects of the pandemic on our economy. Our £1.7 billion package of support means Welsh businesses have access to the most generous help for business anywhere in the United Kingdom.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, First Minister. These are clearly challenging times. You said earlier, in response to question 4—I think it was to Janet Finch-Saunders—that where certain areas of the economy, such as hospitality and tourism, cannot reopen, the UK Government furloughing scheme should continue. Of course, it strikes me that if those areas of the economy are reopening in England, then there will be no furloughing and therefore no consequential money for furloughing in Wales. So, is it not the case, First Minister, that, for the good of the Welsh economy, it's important that you do review the situation and look to reopen as much of the hospitality industry as possible in Wales as swiftly and as safely as possible? And if that isn't possible, then surely your Government will have to look at ways of funding support schemes, such as furloughing, yourselves, and that surely must involve some sort of extra borrowing or tax rises at some point in time.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, both the words 'swift' and 'safe' have to mean something in all of this. It can't be swift at the expense of safe, and if it were to be, then it wouldn't be very swift at all because we'd just be plunged back into the crisis from which we are now emerging.
Nobody should believe that the announcements made yesterday by the UK Government mean that the hospitality industry in England will resume as it was before the crisis began. I thought the Prime Minister was very clear himself about that yesterday. There will be a need to support that industry at a UK level, and that's what we look to the UK Government to do.

Finally, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, the further job losses at Laura Ashley, an iconic and major employer in Newtown, would have been headline news if it wasn't for this current pandemic. It's absolutely devastating, of course, that the retail and manufacturing operations will cease. This couldn't have come at a worse time, I'm sure you'll agree. Just a few months ago, approximately 550 workers were employed by Laura Ashley in Newtown. Hundreds have been made redundant and, clearly, those who are remaining in work are anxious as their jobs hang in the balance. There was a loyal workforce in Newtown, many working for the company for decades.
Can I implore the Welsh Government to leave no stone unturned when it comes to this final opportunity to save this internationally renowned company, which has a long history of employing whole families in my constituency? What advice can you give to those who have been made redundant? And finally, what more can the Welsh Government do to support the highly skilled and loyal staff, or former staff, of Laura Ashley and all those in the wider supply chain who have been adversely affected by this very, very sad news?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I agree with the Member about the seriousness of the news? Employment has been, as Russell George said, over many, many years within that industry, and whole families have been part of that experience. It is very sad, and we would, at other times, have been concentrating on it in a different way. But the Welsh Government will mobilise the help that we have used successfully in other examples of this sort, working with UK operations—the Department for Work and Pensions, and so on—as well as the things that we are able to put together to do everything we can to see that anything further that might still be possible in terms of the industry itself, and where that isn't possible, to invest in the skills of that local population to discover other opportunities, and to make sure that all the help that we can provide, alongside others, is mobilised for the benefit of the Member's constituents in the very difficult circumstances that they must face.

Thank you, First Minister.

Questions to the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip

The next item is questions to the Deputy Minister, Jane Hutt, and the first question is from David Melding.

The Voluntary Sector

David Melding AC: 1. What support is the Welsh Government providing to the voluntary sector in light of the coronavirus pandemic? OQ55337

Jane Hutt AC: On 6 April, I announced £24 million in Welsh Government funding for the voluntary sector in Wales, providing three elements of support: direct support for the sector's response to the crisis, support for organisations struggling to survive due to loss of fundraising income, and additional support for the Welsh voluntary sector infrastructure.

David Melding AC: Presiding Officer, can I point out that I'm an officer of the Order of St John? Minister, you will know that St John Cymru has, for 100 years, provided essential services in the field of health and social care and first aid. It's a very familiar sight at our national events, and, like many other very significant voluntary organisations, it has shown remarkable strength over those years, but has now lost one of its major pillars of income, and a business model is under threat as a result—in its case, its training income, which has more or less dried up overnight from its highly successful level. Do you agree with me that the considerable and welcome support given by the Welsh Government to date will likely need to continue if we're to see our main voluntary sector providers of strength and well-being for the people of Wales be a part of that recovery and remain as active as possible in the recovery phase?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I would like to thank David Melding for that question, and also it gives me the opportunity to thank and congratulate St John Ambulance—the Order of St John, of which you are an officer. St John Ambulance, of course, provides such fantastic volunteer support, and also the work with its young people. You've exposed and you've revealed today, of course, the pressures on St John Ambulance Cymru in terms of their current situation, but I can tell you that this is part of our discussions with the third sector partnership council in terms of how we can support the third sector in Wales out of the immediate impact of the coronavirus pandemic into recovery. They have such an important part to play, and we will seek to find the resources to support them through that journey.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, to add to what David was saying, I think we all know the response of volunteers during the crisis has been incredible, right across the whole of Ogmore, but across the whole of Wales, as well, supporting communities with food and prescriptions, dog walking, deliveries and just social contact and a friendly face to see, albeit socially distanced. It's been amazing. But, Minister, can I ask you what discussions you are having with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, which has been considering what the lessons are from this crisis for the voluntary sector, for retaining the voluntary effort and enthusiasm, for financial sustainability and for the profile and the vulnerability, I have to say, of a volunteer profile in response to pandemics like this, but also the longer term place of the third sector in being an integral part of local planning not just for emergencies, but for general community resilience? What sort of discussions are you having with the WCVA on this?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you very much, Huw Irranca-Davies. And again, can we pay tribute to the volunteers? We did a few weeks ago in volunteering week, but as of 19 June, Volunteering Wales had 31,714 registered volunteers—over 18,000 registered since the lockdown, and in Bridgend and Ogmore and all those volunteers who have come forward, providing support. It's reflected across the whole of Wales.
So, we are now looking, with the third sector partnership council, because obviously the WCVA plays a key role in this, at ways in which we can sustain that level of volunteering and commitment. Some of those are young volunteers who've come forward, and some are going to be going back into the workplace but want to continue to volunteer, so we're looking at that very carefully. But they are meeting some of the needs for some of the most disadvantaged people in Wales as well. I also think that this is where the other voluntary sector key working with local authorities has been clear. So, the Welsh Local Government Association is meeting with all of the councils of voluntary action in every county of Wales. We have actually a very robust infrastructure in Wales, and that working relationship—local government, health boards, strategically with the voluntary sector—that's got to continue, and we can learn from it.

Domestic Abuse

Alun Davies AC: 2. Will the Deputy Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government is monitoring levels of domestic abuse during the emergency period? OQ55340

Jane Hutt AC: I monitor weekly figures on contacts to our Live Fear Free helpline and the number of refuge spaces across Wales. To address the impact of COVID-19, a weekly meeting is held for all of our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence stakeholders with Welsh Government to assess the situation, and a campaign, 'Home shouldn't be a place of fear', launched on 7 May.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you for that, Minister. I think we're all aware that there's been an increase in domestic abuse over the last few months. I'm very concerned that we do hear warm words from Government, but we see little investment in the services to help and support women and children, who are sometimes in quite desperate need. We have some fantastic organisations and some brilliant people in Blaenau Gwent, but they need more support and greater support. They need the resources and the investment to reach out and help women who are fleeing from abuse and violence at home.
I want the Welsh Government to provide us active support, Minister. We don't need warm words, we don't need meetings, we don't need assessments. We need action, and I hope, Minister, that you will be able to provide that action and that impetus to meet the needs of these women who are running away from violence at home and who are in a terrible situation in too many cases.

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Alun Davies for his question, and for raising this today. It's a key priority for me, and, indeed, it is important that we meet with those specialist providers, such as the services provided in Blaenau Gwent, to find out from the front line in terms of the impact of domestic abuse in the lockdown and how that has actually prevented people from coming forward. I know that you have raised this issue, particularly in terms of constituents who've been affected, but we have provided funding—£1.2 million of new money—to buy dispersed community-based accommodation. We've provided an additional £250,000 of new money to support the delivery of VAWDASV services.
Also, those services are benefiting from the £10 million homelessness package provided for emergency accommodation, and of course, as you know, there is regional work in terms of specialist needs and providers, and close working with the police, which has been particularly important. Can I say that we've just also allocated over £100,000 to Welsh Women's Aid to provide strategic support to those at the front line? It is very important that we recognise that, as we come out of the lockdown, the needs will indeed possibly be even greater as victims come forward. But it is during the lockdown that we've had to work very closely and ensure that our funding gets out to those services.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, I was listening to your answer to the Member for Blaenau Gwent, and what's really important is that this level of support is understood, that it's making a difference on the ground. Very often, people who are affected greatly by domestic violence are the children in households where domestic violence has been undertaken. What confidence can you give me as a Member and my constituents that the help that you are putting in place is being targeted to support the children, who very often end up in the crossfire of this horrendous crime against individuals?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I'm grateful to Andrew R.T. Davies for that question, specifically focusing on the needs of those children. We have to recognise that there have been households who have been victims of domestic violence who haven't been able to communicate. In the early days, our Live Fear Free helpline wasn't receiving those calls. In fact, we were encouraging people to use the 999 plus 55. The police have been crucially important, because that was a way in which they could get out to seek support. But also recognising that many of those victims would have come forward if their children were at school. Hub schools have been very important, but we've also got pharmacies and supermarkets to be our link places where victims might be able to go and get support and advice.
I think the 'Home shouldn't be a place of fear' campaign has actually stimulated and brought out calls for support and calls for help, and that's where all our specialist providers have to step in. We obviously need to look particularly at those needs of children and I think, as the schools reopen, that will be another important place where both victims and those children can benefit from going back into school and back into the sort of support that they will need.

Equality for Women In the Workplace

Lynne Neagle AC: 3. What assessment has the Deputy Minister made of the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on equality for women in the workplace? OQ55316

Jane Hutt AC: I've been working closely with those most affected by COVID-19 in Wales. The Women's Equality Network Wales, for example, has highlighted how women have been disproportionately affected as carers, as mothers and in the workplace. Equality is central to the First Minister's framework for recovery from the pandemic.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Minister. It's good to know that that work is ongoing. As the economy starts to open up, I'm being contacted by increasing numbers of women who are under pressure to return to work although they have responsibilities for caring for children. Of course, that is very challenging, as we are not likely to see children back in schools on a normal basis for quite some time.
What can the Government do to send a very clear message to employers in Wales that they need to be compassionate with working parents during this period in order to support them to maintain their employment? What more can the Government do in terms of looking at things like grandparent bubbles to ensure that working parents do have access to the childcare that they need to maintain their jobs?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Lynne Neagle. These are key questions that I'm sure we're all being asked. It's important that also our social partners are engaged with this. I know that the Wales TUC is very much sending out the message up until schools reopen next week that employers should keep staff on furlough and not be expecting them to return to work until they reopen, and that will be on a gradual basis. So, of course, there is also a return to work for more people coming forward, and the gradual reopening of childcare facilities that were announced, from 22 June, and they're operating under new guidelines.
I think it is important that all of our key workers have had free childcare over this period of time, in those hub schools, with vulnerable children as well. So, if people want to know about their local childcare facilities, of course you can find it from your local family information service. But I think also you raise a very important point about the sort of childcare that already goes on, with grandparents particularly. This is something that we are looking at in terms of the need, because clearly, at the moment, it's a question of you being unable to be in the house—you can meet with households, but not inside. It's been looked at as part of the 21-day review process, about mixing households and being drawn together to inform thinking, enabling that important childcare that so often takes placewith grandparents engaged as a key consideration. So, it's certainly being considered, but the reopening of childcare facilities is important as well as the strong message to employers not to force a parent, particularly women, back to work without that childcare.

Creating a More Equal Wales

Vikki Howells AC: 4. Will the Deputy Minister outline the Welsh Government's priorities during the remainder of this Senedd term for creating a more equal Wales? OQ55334

Jane Hutt AC: As we come out of the COVID lockdown period, the Welsh Government will continue to keep equality at the heart of its actions. Equality forms one of the three pillars of the First Minister’s framework for recovery, and this will be supported by legislative, research and engagement activities.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister. It's been really positive to see the peaceful demonstrations of solidarity for Black Lives Matter, and I've been very, very impressed by the numbers of younger people in particular contacting me about this issue. One question they all ask is around the role of education in tackling racism and promoting equality. I know that work is ongoing with Race Council Cymru, for example, on the history part of the new curriculum, but what discussions have you had with the Minister for Education about these issues more generally within the new curriculum and, in particular, the promotion of a diverse range of authors within the literacy element?

Jane Hutt AC: The events that I'm sure we've all been aware of and taken part in virtually—events that I've been engaged in organised by Race Council Cymru and also the report that's been published this week, a report on the socioeconomic factors in terms of disproportionate impact on BAME people and communities—are fundamental to taking us forward to address these issues.
As the First Minister mentioned when that report was published on Monday, Welsh Government's working with Estyn to ensure that their review of Welsh history takes full account of Welsh and wider BAME history, identity and culture. And the education Minister is going to shortly announce a working group to oversee the development of those learning resources. Of course, that includes those black authors and I do thank the Member's constituents for raising this as well, at this important time of Black Lives Matter and addressing these issues.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to today's agenda. The draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Leader of the house, is it possible to understand—and I appreciate that because of the COVID crisis, Government has had its whole focus on dealing with the issues around COVID—but is it possible to understand how the Government will get back to being prompt in answering Members' questions and also coming back with constituency queries? Because at the moment, I have an inbox that is showing outstanding questions from April, and certainly, I'm getting replies from Ministers that date back to the end of March, beginning of April. Some understanding of how Government proposes to work through this backlog so that we can respond to constituency queries would be greatly appreciated.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for beginning his contribution by recognising the extreme pressure that Welsh Government is under in terms of responding to the coronavirus crisis.
Clearly, the volume of correspondence and the volume of written questions has grown exponentially; so, we've had over 850 in the same time period as we would have had 250 last year. So, clearly, it is putting a huge strain on resources in order to provide those answers, but we are attempting to respond as quickly as possible. But I would remind Andrew R.T. Davies and other colleagues respectfully that a great deal of information is available in the public domain, and I think that the Welsh Government website does hold a lot of that information. But, as I say, we are doing our best to respond as quickly as possible to the multitude of written questions that we are receiving.

Leanne Wood. Just pause a second, Leanne, whilst your microphone is turned on. Yes, carry on.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch. Last week in the Rhondda, many properties were flooded, some for a second, some for even a third time. Now, the causes and the effects of the floods in June may well have been very different to the floods in February, but the effects are exactly the same, and for good reason, people are not confident that the issues have been resolved. And that's why we need an independent, expert-led inquiry—not just about the causes, but to put forward proposals to mitigate future flooding as well and to consider what investment needs to take place. We also need to know more. Why, for example, weren't people able to get sandbags when they were needing them, not just now, but in February as well? Where was the emergency planning? The yellow weather warning had been forecast for days. What has been Natural Resources Wales's role? It's been particularly unedifying to watch various authorities squabbling with each other as to who is responsible while no-one accepts responsibility, and all the while, people's insurance premiums are spiralling out of control. So, none of this is good enough.
Now, there are numerous options for independent, expert-led inquiries, and, of course, I can understand why the Labour-led Welsh Government might agree with the local MP and not want an inquiry. A bit rich, I must say, when he voted to support one in England. And what is good enough for England should be good enough for Wales, and good enough for the Rhondda. The more the Government resists an inquiry into this, I'm afraid the more people will believe that you have something to hide. It could be swift and inexpensive if the Government wanted it to be. So, can we have a statement, as a matter of urgency, outlining how the First Minister intends to find out what has happened in the Rhondda and put it right?

Rebecca Evans AC: I think the First Minister did respond to the leader of Plaid Cymru on this point earlier on during First Minister's questions, but, clearly, once again, our thoughts are with the people of Rhondda Cynon Tafwho have faced terrible flooding once more. I do know that Natural Resources Wales is currently investigating, and we're in close contact with their officers to understand the cause of the flooding and the related impacts. And, also, of course, local authorities do have that statutory duty to investigate flooding under section 19 of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, and their flood investigations report will establish the causes of the floodings and then make recommendations as to how those risks can be reduced in future. But, clearly, the point has been made by both yourself and the leader of Plaid Cymru this afternoon, and we'll consider how best we can keep colleagues informed with statements on flooding and the response.

And, finally, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to request a statement explaining three distinct but related matters about care homes. The first is the rationale behind the initial decision by the Welsh Government to refuse COVID-19 tests for asymptomatic residents leaving hospital before going back to care homes. Given the number of deaths and grieving families that resulted from the policy, there's clear public interest in explaining the reasons for this decision. Saying, 'That's just what we were advised' isn't good enough.
Now, the second is an explanation of why this policy was changed from 23 April onwards. When I originally asked the First Minister during First Minister's questions on 29 April about this, he told me the policy was changed, and I quote,
'not because the clinical advice had changed, but because we recognised the need to give confidence to people in the sector'.
But in a press conference on Monday, he said in relation to this matter, and, again, I quote:
'When the advice changed, we changed the practice.'
I think the First Minister has a duty to explain why he's given contradictory answers to this question.
Then, the final matter is an explanation, please, for the health Minister's claim that the original policy led to no deaths when there's clear evidence to the contrary. I spoke to a care home owner this morning who described that claim as
'breathtakingly stupid. All the evidence points to the fact that not testing people leaving hospital led to these deaths.'
Now, trying to get information from the Welsh Government about this matter is like trying to get blood from a stone, and the continued obfuscation gives the impression they're trying to hide something. So, I would request that a statement be provided, setting out all the facts in relation to this matter as soon as possible.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Delyth Jewell for raising this important issue, because COVID-19 in care homes is clearly an issue of paramount concern during this ongoing pandemic.
Delyth raises a series of quite detailed questions that would require, I think, a more detailed answer than I'm able to provide today, because I don't have the evidence and so forth, and the advice at my fingertips. Although we have tried to be as transparent as possible by providing summaries of the advice that Welsh Government receives on the Welsh Government website. But if I could invite Delyth Jewell to write to the First Minister, or, probably more appropriately, the health Minister, on those specific questions, then they'll clearly seek to respond in due course.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs

The next item is questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs. And the first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

The Welfare of Animals in Zoos

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the welfare of animals in Welsh zoos? OQ55307

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Officials wrote out to all zoos and animal attractions in Wales. For those who responded, we've been offering advice and support throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. Most of those that have liaised with us have received funding from Welsh Government and/or other organisations. Officials continue to monitor the situation.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister. The saying goes, 'You can't furlough fish'. Zoos across Wales have a duty to maintain animal welfare. This costs thousands of pounds, such as £118,000 a month for the Welsh Mountain Zoo, the national zoo of Wales. During lockdown, zoos have been pushed towards the jaws of death. There has been talk of euthanasia at places like Borth Wild Animal Kingdom and Anglesey Sea Zoo. As the sector has said, there should have been special funds recognising that they have to stay functioning, even when closed. Bearing in mind animal welfare, and that the Welsh Government has had a significant Barnett consequential from the UK Government's zoo fund, why have you not established a zoo support fund for Wales to provide this much-needed support? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: If I can just correct Janet Finch-Saunders: the Welsh Government has not had significant funds in a Barnett consequential. The UK Government have indicated we will get some later this year, but, clearly, if we'd waited for that, there would have been animal welfare issues, which there haven't been.
We didn't feel we needed a specific zoo fund, as you referred to it, because, from the outset, we provided all the licensed zoos and animal attractions with details of the existing schemes that you had. I know the Welsh Mountain Zoo has publicly stated they have received funds from the economic resilience fund, and also that they've had a loan from the Development Bank of Wales, both of which, obviously—one was from the Welsh Government, non-repayable, and the other was from the Development Bank of Wales, which was set up by the Welsh Government. I understand also there is an application in from the third sector resilience fund, and I think that is the area that the consequential will come from the UK Government. But I want to be very clear that we haven't had that funding. A questionnaire went out to all zoos and animal attractions, as I said, at the—probably not right at the start of the pandemic, but certainly in April. And we've been able to show that that funding is available without setting up a specific scheme for the zoos and animal attractions.

Mandy Jones. Carry on.

Mandy Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I know there was a lot of noise around the UK Government's specific provision for zoos and aquariums, allowing each concern to access grant funding of up to £100,000. I wrote to Ken Skates some weeks ago, on the Welsh Mountain Zoo in particular, and he gave assurances that Welsh zoos had not missed out. As lockdown hopefully continues to relax, will you join me in asking the Welsh public to get out in the fresh air, and visit our local zoos and attractions, so that we can remind ourselves of their contribution to education and conservation, as well as recreation? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Mandy Jones. And certainly, as the lockdown measures are eased, that will be the message from Welsh Government.

The Welsh Dairy Support Scheme

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Dairy Support Scheme which has recently opened for applications? OQ55320

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. The dairy support scheme opened on 18 June to support farmers hardest hit by the exceptional market conditions caused by COVID-19. Eligible farmers will be entitled to up to £10,000 to help them continue to meet fixed costs and sustain production capacity, without impacts on animal welfare and the environment.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for your answer. I have been contacted, I have to say, by a number of farmers who are literally just a few pounds short of meeting the 25 per cent threshold of a fall in their income, which would then make them, of course, eligible to qualify for the support scheme. But theseare farmers who have incurred significant losses, but, of course, subsequently, they get nothing, no support whatsoever, because, of course, they continue to be ineligible for all other support schemes, particularly, of course, the economic resilience fund.
Now, the European Commission has currently included a COVID-19 measure within the European agricultural fund for rural development, and Members of the European Parliamenthave now voted to allow for a one-off lump sum to be made to farmers of €7,000, with up to 2 per cent of the rural development plan budget, plus co-financing of EU funds, allowed for this measure. So, will you consider the implementation of this measure so that we can help ease the cash flow problems on so many Welsh farms?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llyr, and you're quite right, the EU Commission have done that. And certainly, that would be for us to decide if we can do that and it's something that I've asked officials to look at.

Angela Burns AC: Good afternoon, Minister. The dairy support fund is very welcome for farmers in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, but they have asked me a number of questions on it. One of which was: why did you decide to calculate it on the price of the milk unit rather than 25 per cent of the overall loss of income? Because some of them pointed out that, although the price that they may get per litre of milk remains the same, or isn't quite 25 per cent less, they've actually lost massive amounts of volume. That leads me on to a second point, which is: I wonder if you could give us an outline of what you might be able to do to help increase the take-up of milk and dairy products by, not just the general public, but by helping farmers to diversify more, because, as we know, the hospitality industry has really crashed and that's where a lot of my farmers have lost their marketplace.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Angela. You raise a similar point to Llyr, and I suppose I should say that there are always winners and losers when you have these schemes. Unfortunately, there has to be a cut-off point. It's a finite budget; we haven't got huge amounts of funding to play around with. So, the scheme was introduced to support those farmers hardest hit by the exceptional market conditions that, obviously, the diary sector suffered due to COVID-19. It does require farmers to meet the eligibility criteria of a milk price reduction of 25 per cent or more, as you said. That was based on the analysis of the milk buyers who face the highest impact as a result of the crisis.It was also designed in response to decisions that were outside of the control of the dairy farmers, so primarily as a consequence of the actions of the milk buyer.
I think you make a very important point about encouraging more people, in relation to eating and drinking more milk and cheese and dairy products et cetera. You may be aware of the new Agriculture and Horticulture Development Boardconsumer campaign. That was part-funded by Welsh Government, UK Government and Scottish Government. So, that is primarily aimed at increasing consumer demand for milk by 3 per cent. I'll be able to update Members on the success of that scheme over the next few weeks.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'm disappointed the Welsh Government hasn't managed to find the capital needed to increase Welsh horticulture production—

Can you just move closer to your microphone, Jenny? You're not being heard completely. Yes, can you put your headset on, Jenny?

Jenny Rathbone AC: Yes, sorry—apologies. Apologies to all.
I just wanted to say that, whilst I'm disappointed that the Welsh Government hasn't found the money to increase horticulture production at this important growing season, given that food security in fruit and veg in Wales is dangerously low at 1 per cent, and we don't know what's going to happen in the future as a result of coronavirus in terms of imports, nevertheless, I do welcome the scheme to provide the compensation to small dairy farmers who've lost 25 per cent or more of their income because of the closure of cafes and restaurants.
I wonder if you could tell us what progress has been made on increasing capacity to convert the surplus milk into cheese and butter, and to use the EU public intervention scheme to store milk, butter and cheese in order to prevent milk being poured down the drain in future. Also, I wonder if you can just tell uswhat the total amount set aside for the dairy rescue scheme is.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Jenny. We're all getting used to new ways of working, aren't we? Just about your comments about horticulture, as you say, it does make up only 1 per cent of the Welsh agricultural sector, so there's massive potential there to increase. And you'll know, from answers I gave you during committee scrutiny, that this is an area we are looking at and how we do enable, if farmers want to, to go into the horticultural part of the sector.
In relation to your questions around the dairy sector, I think, at the moment, it's around £0.5 million, but I will have to check that out. And we're certainly looking at the applications now. I think we've had about 91 applications in, and I know about 11 have been processed already and the money will be reaching farmers, I hope, by the end of this week. The private storage aid schemes for skimmed milk powder, butter and cheese were announced by the European Commission and opened on 7 May. I know the cheese quota particularly was very well received, and that allocation has now been filled, but applications do continue to be received for butter. The non-collection of milk amounted to a very small number of cases, and non-collection has been included as part of the dairy support scheme, as this obviously was outside the control of the dairy farmer. But I absolutely recognise how upsetting that was. Even for a small number of farmers, it was incredibly upsetting and it's something we would want to avoid.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, you will know, I'm sure, that a criminal investigation is now under way into the fire at the Hafod landfill site—

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm sorry, Presiding Officer; I can't hear.

Oh, right. I can hear. Llyr, can you just—

Lesley Griffiths AC: I can hear now. Sorry, Llyr.

Okay, we're all fine. We can go. Go, Llyr.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I was just asking, Minister, that I'm sure you will be aware of the criminal investigation that's under way into the fire at the Hafod landfill site, near Wrexham, earlier this month. And both Natural Resources Wales and the company that runs the site have told me that they don't actually know what started the fire. Now, in that case, do you not think it wise to not allow the company to continue dumping there, prior to the criminal investigation being concluded?

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, I was assured by NRW that it was completely safe to carry on. I have a meeting with NRW tomorrow. I only found out about the event that you've just referred to recently. So, I will certainly be raising it with NRW tomorrow, and get some more assurance and then I'm very happy to write to the Member following my meeting tomorrow to update him.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, I'm sure a number of people will be bemused that they're allowed to carry on without knowing exactly what caused the fire. So, I would urge you, Minister—and I have raised this with you before—to make sure that action is taken sooner rather than later. Because obviously the local community didn't want it in the first place, and now we see some of the consequences of that development.
Now, you referred to Natural Resources Wales in your response to me, of course, and they are key in protecting our environment, responding to pollution incidents such as this, but also the flooding response that we're seeing in different parts of Wales over recent months and, more broadly, the climate emergency and nature emergency that we're facing. And I've previously raised concerns with you regarding the funding of Natural Resources Wales over recent years, and the fact that they really are on an unsustainable trajectory of dwindling resources driven by funding cuts on the one hand, and then, on the other, increased duties and responsibilities. So, effectively, this Government is asking NRW to do more with less.
They already saw a real-terms cut in their budget for this year and now they're facing, of course, as you know, a £7.5 million further cut to their in-year budget. Now, if you add in the multi-million pound losses projected for the timber operations that they have, then this is really becoming critical. So, in light of their key role in protecting the environment, in responding to flooding and in leading the charge against the climate emergency, will you now reconsider the proposed budget cut for Natural Resources Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, I think, again, I referred to this in my answers during committee, and we are working very hard with NRW. We don't want to be in this position, where we had to reset and repurpose our budget so soon in the financial year, but I'm sure all Members will appreciate, with the COVID-19 pandemic, it was absolutely essential that we did that. When I met with NRW about two or three weeks ago, I asked them for their assessment around non grant-in-aid funding, and I think it's really important that we do look at the—if indeed they have a reduction of that. I know they're waiting for the June timber figures before they give us some firmer information around that.
What I do think is really important is that we work with them to make sure they have the flexibility around their budgets. So, this is the top agenda item tomorrow. But, at the moment, with the way we've had to, obviously, put money into the COVID-19 pandemic response, I'm afraid I'm not able to look at that budget cut in the way that you would want me to. But, as I say, we've all had to do this, and everyone has to appreciate, with the COVID-19 pandemic, there isn't going to be the same level of funding that would have been available.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I understandthe point you're making, but, of course, we are facing more than one crisis at the moment, and I think that needs to be remembered as well.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: There is one other issue that I would like to raise with you, if I may, Minister, and that, of course, is the cluster of cases of COVID-19 that we've seen in meat processing plants in Wales, and that reflects what we've seen in other nations such as the USA and Germany and so on. And what I want to know is what you as Minister and what the Welsh Government are doing in responding proactively to these situations. Rather then waiting for cases to arise, shouldn't we now be developing a testing programme specifically targeted at processing plants such as these so that we can catch these cases at an early stage and reduce risks that that would spread into the community?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I asked my officials to do a rapid piece of work. We've called this an initial density and environment risk assessment of not just meat processing plants and abattoirs, but also all our food businesses. That piece of work is well under way—I'm expecting an initial report by close of play today—because I think it is important that we look at what's happened internationally. You mentioned America and Germany, which have seen similar outbreaks and clusters. It's really important that we learn lessons. It's also important that we learn lessons from our own meat processing plants. So, if you think about—well, probably all of them, they've got sister companies in other countries. I know that they themselves—so, Kepak, 2 Sisters, Dunbia—are all looking within their own organisations and are feeding in to my officials with this. So, this is a very rapid piece of work, as I say, and I will be getting the report today, because I think it's very important that we continue to work very closely together.
So, obviously, I've been having discussions with the health Minister. Public Health Wales are, obviously, very involved as well, and the local authorities and the health boards, and our test, trace, protect I think has really been tested and has come through. But we obviously need to keep a very close eye on this.

Conservative spokesperson, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, if I could just take you up on the point you raised in response to Llyr's last question, will you be making that report available for Members to see? Because I think there's a lot of public interest in this at the moment, and it'd be important to understand what conclusions have come out from the report that you've commissioned. And, secondly, within that report, will it identify are there problem areas within the plant? Because, as someone who is familiar with plants that process food in this way, very often, the conditions that we find in the winter of the chill and the cold are very much found in the processing side, rather than in the lairage or in the slaughter hall. So, is that level of work that you're undertaking, or indeed the health Minister's undertaking, specific to trying to locate an area of the plant that is susceptible to the COVID-19 virus?But, more importantly, will the overall report be made available for Members to see?

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, this assessment that I asked—this is my food division, that I asked—officials to have a look at, and we're doing it very closely with Food Innovation Wales—. Professor David Lloyd and Martin Jardine—you'll be very aware of both of them—are leading on this piece of work. And because I wanted it done very quickly, it's really important that we asked for assistance.
Will I be making it public? It's there to help us as Ministers and the Welsh Government to provide guidance for these companies. I don't know what there—. You know, if there were anything to say that I can't make it public—but, as you know, I'm a very transparent Minister, and, if I can make it public, then I'll be very happy to do so. I think it's really important that—the points that you raise. So, we know the virus can live much longer on cold stainless steel, for instance, than it does outside. So, clearly, for those of us who have been in those sorts of organisations and places, we know that they are very cold. Last week, we were told that noise can have an impact. So, again, some of these places are very noisy, so that could be having an impact too.
Clearly, the 2mdistancing, in some areas—we've seen production lines—it is very difficult and I know companies have been very thorough in trying to maintain that, but clearly there are a lot of issues and the idea of having this rapid review was to see what was there and what we could help with, and I mentioned in my answer to Llyr that there is a lot of best practice, and, of course, companies and organisations are competitive, but I know everybody is really keen to share that best practice.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Well, I appreciate your transparency, Minister, and I would implore you to make that report available if there are no constraints on you making it available. There might be some legal constraints that I'm unaware of, but, if that could be made available, I think it would be appreciated.
Last week, the Northern Ireland Executive announced a £25 million support package for agriculture in relation to the COVID-19 crisis. The Republic of Ireland Government has put a £45 million support package in place for the agricultural industry. Have you had discussions with the finance Minister, given the consequentials that have come down and the additional economic resilience measures that have been made available to other sectors in the Welsh economy—have you had a conversation with the finance Minister to see whether a similar level of support could be put in place to support the agricultural industry, which in certain circumstances has seen price decreases of 15 to 20 per cent in the price margin that they can sell their product into, and into a sector that has very often closed down, such as the service sector?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm sorry. My computer froze for a little while, but I think I got the main gist of your question, Andrew. I have lots of conversations with the finance Minister, as I'm sure you will appreciate, around various aspects of my portfolio. I made it very clear at the beginning that we would look on a case-by-case basis if any parts of the agricultural sector came to me for funding, and that was obviously—. The dairy sector came first. So, that was due to many conversations with the finance Minister and with other ministerial colleagues that we had the funding to have the dairy sector scheme, and that was obviously because of the specific market circumstances in relation to dairy, which I don't think are in other parts of the agricultural sector at the current time.
So, I haven't got the funding available to do what you just referred to that the Northern Ireland Executive have done, but, obviously, on a case-by-case basis, we would have a look at it. I meet fortnightly now with the farming unions and I know that they will be the first to tell me if they feel that there is an area of agriculture that we need to be looking at.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I think I understood from your reply, Minister, that you haven't made such an application to the finance Minister. I'd merely point out that, with such moneys going into our competitors in Northern Ireland and the Republic, in the medium to long term, this will place the agricultural sector at a severe disadvantage.
Last week, you announced a consultation on third-party puppy sales and obviously the campaign around Lucy's law has galvanised many Members across the Chamber from all political parties. As I understand it, that consultation is due to close in the middle of August. If you get a fair wind in the legislative time frame, when do you expect this to be entered into the Assembly so that we can discuss how this can be taken forward? Because, with dissolution now on 31 March, there's a huge pressure to try and get this on the statute book before, obviously, we go into dissolution. Can you give us confidence that, as a Minister, you will get this on the statute book by dissolution on 31 March?

Lesley Griffiths AC: That's certainly my intention and I was grateful to the Member and all members of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committeefor their commitment to help me do that. I've had the shortest consultation that I could have. We have done consultations before, but obviously there is a process we have to go through. But I certainly hope in early 2021 to be in the position to get that on the statute book.

Question 3—Dawn Bowden.

Yes, I think we can hear you now.

Dawn Bowden AC: Okay. Thank you, Llywydd. I was having trouble unmuting then. I do apologise.

Flood Recovery Work

Dawn Bowden AC: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on flood recovery work in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? OQ55315

Lesley Griffiths AC: In response to flooding caused by storm Dennis, local authorities have undertaken extensive works across Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney to assess the damage caused and to conduct repairs to flood alleviation assets. Increased inspections and maintenance of flood alleviation assets have also been undertaken to reduce the risk of future flooding.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. Firstly, can I add my sympathy to others' for those people who have been yet again affected by flooding in recent days? In parts of my constituency, the problem is not just about rivers flooding, but it's also the adequacy of largely Victorian local drainage and culvert systems, which frankly seem unable to cope with the extreme weather conditions that now seem to be quite commonplace. I am, however, picking up on the point you've just made, and very pleased to see some of the evidence in my constituency of the recovery work after the storm damage earlier in the year. But it does seem to me that there is a significant need for retro-adaptation of some of these old systems, and fresh investment in sustainable drainage infrastructure. So, what further scope is there for targeted local action as a complement to the larger schemes that are currently being funded?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Dawn Bowden, and there's certainly lots of scope, and I know Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council are procuring consultants to develop five schemes, identified as highest risk flood defences, but they've also completed the refurbishment of a collapsed culvert known to have flooded 10 properties in the Merthyr Vale area. So, it's really good to see that sort of proactive work from the council and they've also engaged with consultants to commence development work for capital works where 170 properties were flooded during storm Dennis. But I absolutely agree with you, the flooding we saw last week was absolutely heartbreaking, and particularly in an area like Pentre, which I know is not in your constituency, but it suffered flooding, and I know there are houses in your constituency that have had multiple flooding as well. So, it's really important that we continue to get the schemes, because we have the capital available for those schemes, and I'm now funding the sort of preparatory work 100 per cent, because I think local authorities told us that could be a barrier, so we're funding all that preparatory work 100 per cent now, so please do encourage the local authority to come forward. I don't think we had any bids from Merthyr in relation to the financial assistance we offered from the flood risk management programme, but I'm still open to consider such bids.

The Agriculture Bill

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 4. What discussions has the Minister had with the UK Government regarding the Agriculture Bill? OQ55321

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. I have had regular discussions with the UK Government throughout the development of the Agriculture Bill. Powers for Welsh Ministers are included at my request and draft provisions are carefully scrutinised by officials.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. It was very, very disappointing that Conservative MPs representing rural constituencies in Wales, including Ynys Môn, voted recently against an amendment to the Agriculture Bill that sought to safeguard the interests of Welsh farmers. The purpose of the amendment was to ensure that imported agricultural produce under post-Brexit trade deals would have to adhere to the same animal welfare standards and environmental standards as farmers here, and certainly, without that assurance, farmers and customers are being undermined. Can I ask once again for the Minister to push again for some assurances from the UK Government that every agricultural product sold here will have to adhere to the same standards adhered to by our farmers? It's clear that Boris Johnson and his Members in Wales are willing to sacrifice the rural economy, but we in Wales, the farming sector, the unions and the politicians must do everything to withstand that.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I absolutely agree with Rhun ap Iorwerth and he has my assurance that I continue to push that. I know my colleague Eluned Morgan, who leads on the trade policy for Welsh Government, is doing the same, because obviously this fits into the trade policy area as well. I have my next DEFRA quadrilateral next week and I will continue—. And I've also written to George Eustace; I think it was about 12 June. I've not had a response to that letter yet, but I will continue to push and I will raise it at the meeting next week.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, the UK Agriculture Bill, going through the UK Parliament, will of course have implications for farmers across the UK, and I understand that you intend to publish a White Paper towards the end of the year, which will set out the context for the future of Welsh farming and pave the way for an agriculture Wales Bill. Can you therefore update us on the progress of that White Paper, and when we're likely to see it published? And could you provide an update also on the discussions that you've had to date with the Welsh farming community in relation to that specific White Paper?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, as you say, I have committed to publishing a White Paper by the end of this year. Work was paused, probably for a couple of months at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, when officials obviously had to work in that area, but we're now back up to full capacity on that piece of work. So, you'll be aware we've had two thorough consultations, which have obviously helped us bring this paper together. Again, as part of the White Paper, we were looking at the design of our schemes. We've not been able to have those face-to-face visits that we would have wanted to see, but we're certainly able to do it online. So, that paper will be published by the end of this year. The work is now back up to the level we wanted it; obviously there's been a hiatus whilst officials have been dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. It is always, I think it's safe to say, a topic of conversation when I meet with the farming unions, and I mentioned in an earlier answer, I am meeting with the farming unions far more frequently during the pandemic. A few times we've sort of met weekly, but we're now in a rhythm of meeting fortnightly, but it's something that's always discussed. It's also something that's discussed at the EU transition round-table that I hold with stakeholders, and, again, thoroughly discussed, not just by the farming unions but by other interested parties, so including the environmental non-governmental organisations.

Joyce Watson AC: I agree with everybody—with Rhun particularly—that the Agriculture Bill must include legal guarantees that animal welfare environmental standards won't be cut in post-Brexit trade deals with the USA, or anybody else for that matter.
We've all seen the headlines about chlorinated chicken, but we've got issues with chicken farms in Wales, specifically in Powys, with the council just granting permission for four more farms and saying that there won't be a moratorium on planning applications. I find it particularly concerning that, in January, all planning applications that require an environmental impact assessment in Powys will be determined by just one planning officer, not the council's planning committee. National Resources Wales has previously expressed concerns about the accumulative environmental impact of chicken farms on ancient woodlands and ground water, and I've raised this issue many times myself. So, can I ask you, Minister, if you would look at the situation in Powysand assess the need for planning applications to take account of existing farms and the burden on the local environment and the community?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Joyce Watson. If I can just say about chlorinated chicken, because this is something that many people have written to me about. It is currently banned in the EU and the Welsh Government does not accept that that position should change. So it's an opportunity for me to say that as we do move to develop trading relationships with other countries outside the European Union.
In response to your question around poultry farms, where planning permission is required for new poultry sheds they do have to consider the economic benefits and the environmental impacts of the proposals, and it does include the cumulative effect of increasing the number of developments. We are looking at how local planning authorities plan for new poultry development, and we've convened the town and country planning intensive agricultural working group to advise on how development plan policies should be prepared and the material considerations involved in determining planning applications. The planning system doesn't operate in isolation and other regulatory regimes, such as environmental permitting and statutory nuisance, will control the impact of these developments on the localities also.

Supporting Farmers

Nick Ramsay AC: 5. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's policies for supporting farmers during the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ55326

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Our policies include the Welsh dairy support scheme, which opened last week and will support those farmers hardest hit by COVID-19 due to the closure of the food service and hospitality sectors. Our unique Farming Connect support and advice service has continued via weekly webinars, vlogs, podcasts and video-conferencing, as well as e-mails, phone calls and texts.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Minister, and you've anticipated my supplementary question, which is on the topic of the dairy rescue scheme and the effect on dairy farmers at the moment—a very live issue in my corner of Wales, and a number of Members have asked you about it.
You said—in answer to Angela Burns, I think it was, and, indeed, to Andrew R.T. Davies—that there are always going to be winners and losers in a scheme and that resources are tight at the moment, which I fully understand. Would you agree with me that the problem with the effect on the dairy industry is that it's almost delivering a double-whammy, if you like, to rural areas? Because of course you've got, first of all, the effect on the hospitality industry of the lockdown, which is a key sector of the economy in rural Wales, and the knock-on effect of farmers, who don't have so much milk to sell, then affects the rural economy in a second wave.
So, in terms of your dairy rescue scheme, what are you doing to look at the overall effect on rural communities of the effect on dairy farmers, and how are you assisting dairy farmers in their diversification at this time, so that we can mitigate the whole consequential effect on our rural ares?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I think that I've given thorough answers around the dairy support scheme. I am very pleased that we are getting the first moneys out this week, because I think that's very important too. You are quite right about the rural areas. As is often the case, it's the rural area that suffers and, obviously, the COVID-19 pandemic has had a massive impact on tourism, as well as on the agricultural sector. So, I think that it is really important that, when we look at recovery—as, of course, we are doing as a Welsh Government—we look at the impact on the rural areas and what might be needed to support them. I'm thinking of drawing together—. These are very early thoughts, and I haven't even discussed them with officials yet, but I think it might be that we will need a specific group to look at recovery in relation to our rural areas.

Flood Recovery and Prevention

Mick Antoniw AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's flood recovery and prevention action in Rhondda Cynon Taf? OQ55309

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government provided £3 million emergency funding to our flood risk management authorities by the start of April. This includes £549,500 to Rhondda Cynon Taf, which is the full amount they applied for. They also received £1.7 million through the emergency financial assistance scheme to fund their initial response.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister, and your earlier comments on the flooding issue. The further flooding that was recently experienced in parts of Rhondda Cynon Taf just weeks ago is a warning to us all. If it were not for the proactive response from Rhondda Cynon Taf and from Welsh Water, things could have been, in fact, a great deal worse and even more extensive. Most of the flooding this time in my constituency was around the Nantgarw and Rhydyfelin areas and was related to issues such as blocked and silted drains, but it’s clear that urgent investment is needed in our flood local defence infrastructure.
Now, the Minister will be aware that I have written to her asking for an overall review of flood alleviation measures in Taff Ely. But, will you confirm that the necessary flood prevention work identified to date will proceed and without delay? Can you also outline the steps that the Welsh Government is taking, in conjunction with other bodies, to ensure that, this winter, we will have done everything that we can to ensure that there is no repeat of the disastrous flooding that hit Pontypridd and Taff Ely and other parts of south Wales earlier this year?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Mick. I think that you were the first person to alert me to the flooding last week. As I said, my sympathy goes out to everybody who was affected. You are quite right: the agencies did come together. So, the local authority, Dŵr Cymruand NRW were out there straight away. I was very grateful that everybody reacted very quickly. I know that RCT asked for pumps straight away; they got there straight away. But, it is really important that we look at the lessons learned from the February flooding. We had had some initial views. I've fed them into the new flood and coastal erosion strategy that we've launched. But I think we do need to have a look—. I am aware of your correspondence, which I've not responded to yet. I think it is really important that we look at the current assets and what more might be needed. As I mentioned in an earlier answer, we have the capital funding available. I'm ensuring that the preparatory work is fully met by Welsh Government—that the cost of it is fully met—and I'm very happy to work with every local authority and consider all the applications that come in.
I think Llyr mentioned before that we're faced with several crises at the moment, and, clearly, the climate emergency, if that tells us anything, we know that we are absolutely in the middle of that climate emergency now.

Leanne Wood AC: After the floods in February, people in the Rhondda received £500 from the local council, £500 from the Welsh Government, and more if they were uninsured, more if they were a business, and even more again from local fundraising efforts. What they didn't get was defences to stop this happening again. So, will you commit to providing floodgates for every home that needs one? And will you outline what financial support might be available to people who were flooded this time? And finally, Minister, do you support an independent, expert-led inquiry into what's happened and to give us some recommendations for future mitigation?

Lesley Griffiths AC: There were three questions there. Again, we need to look at what the assessment is, what's needed in our flood defences. So, floodgates for every property—that hasn't crossed my desk yet, but if that came forward it's something that we could assess.
You referred to the £500 from Welsh Government that was given to residents back in February, and that's certainly something that we're looking at at the current time, following the flooding last week.
I think it's important that we let all the investigations come forward. They can be done much quicker than an independent inquiry, and that's what I'm waiting for.

Finally, David Melding.

David Melding AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Minister, the topography of the Glamorgan and Gwent valleys has always made them highly susceptible to flooding, often flash flooding, and the planning system, therefore, is very, very important in building up resilience. Some of the traditional methods used in other parts of the country, like bunding, are not practical. We've really got to think about how we manage these very fast moving water courses. To date, we're hearing again very, very old stories about culverts blocking and debris in river courses. This has to be constantly looked at and repaired and maintained.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I probably should have said at some point, around last week's flooding, that the initial reports I got weren't that culverts were blocked; it was the sheer intensity of the rainfall. It was a huge amount of rainfall in a very, very short time—I think 21mm within about 20 minutes. So, I think the initial reports—. But, obviously, we need to see if there were culverts blocked on this occasion also.
I think we do need to look at natural flood management schemes, because that could help reduce the rapid run-off in urban areas. So, again, we're providing 100 per cent funding for that preparatory work. But this is an area that Welsh Government have had a huge focus on, and there's been a significant amount of funding come forward for flood alleviation schemes over the term of this Government.

Thank you, Minister. We will now break for lunch.

We will reconvene at 2 o'clock—a shorter lunch break than envisaged due to my generosity in calling as many of you, as Members, as possible. So, we'll reconvene at 2 p.m.

Plenary was suspended at 13:19.

The Senedd reconvened at 14:00, with the Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) in the Chair.

Welcome back to the Plenary.

4. Questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government

We continue our agenda with item 4, which is questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government. Question 1 is Helen Mary Jones.

Child Poverty

Helen Mary Jones AC: 1. What discussions has the Minister had with local authorities about the role they can play in tackling child poverty after the COVID-19 crisis? OQ55324

Julie James AC: Thank you for the question, Helen Mary. I have worked very closely with local authorities throughout the crisis. They have played a central role in meeting the essential needs of children, young people and their families. We will continue our collaboration over the coming months to ensure addressing child poverty is an integral part of the Wales-wide recovery planning.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. I'm sure that you'd agree with me that there are many factors in this crisis that actually risk exacerbating what is already a very serious child poverty crisis here in Wales, and was before COVID, and those include things like issues with access to childcare when women may not be able to go back to work if schools are not full time—everything from that to children who are digitally excluded from remote education. Can I ask you today, Minister, to continue to work with local authorities and to re-emphasise to them that they should put tackling child poverty and raising children out of poverty right at the heart of their agendas as they begin to plan for building back better after the COVID crisis?

Julie James AC: Yes, thank you, Helen Mary. I'm very happy to confirm that we are doing it; I'm happy to do it again. Very much as part of the Government's central planning, we are looking for a values-based recovery that makes sure that those who are hardest hit by austerity and previous crises are not double whammied, if you like, by this one. So, we're very aware of that. We've been doing a number of things to make sure that people are protected, in as much as we can do so. So, we've increased the amount of funding for the discretionary assistance fund by £11 million, so it can support calls for financial help from people across Wales during the pandemic. We've supported third sector organisations affected by the crisis with a £24 million fund to enable voluntary organisations to continue and expand their work during the crisis—very important in view of some of the things that I know you've been working with throughout this period.
Last month, I met with the Welsh Local Government Association and the children's commissioner to discuss improving outcomes for children in poverty, looking at what more could be learned about what is working well and exploring opportunities to share good practice across local authorities.
I will say, one of the small upsides of the crisis has been the ability to work on various digital platforms with leaders across local government. That has pulled us together in a way that perhaps wasn't the case before. So, we've had a much better and more comprehensive contact. I very much hope that we will be able to spread good practice in that way, working together closely as a team in the future. So, I'm very pleased with local authorities, in the way that we've worked together. It feels, I think, to them and me, more like a team than it did before.
We've obviously got a £40 million commitment to ensure pupils receive free school meals and that they're fed not just through term time, but throughout the summer holidays. I'm very pleased that we had done that; we did not need to be told to do that by a footballer, although I'm very pleased that he's managed to secure that for children across England as well. It's a very important point about tackling child poverty.
I also just want to mention that we are continuing to tackle period poverty, and we're working with the WLGA to ensure local authorities can manage distribution of products alongside free school meals. So, that's very important and, I think, a sometimes overlooked part of what experiencing poverty can mean, especially if you're a young woman in school.

Thank you. Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Minister, analysis published by the End Child Poverty coalition earlier in this pandemic showed that, across Wales as a whole—reporting 2015 to 2019—that child poverty fell marginally. During this pandemic, the Welsh Government have responded to the crisis with additional and very substantial investment to the Wales-only discretionary assistance fund, which you've just mentioned, which provides help for those facing desperate financial crisis, as well as allowing greater flexibility for those accessing the discretionary assistance fund, and in addition to the local hardship fund announcement, and, obviously, the critical, major Wales economic resilience fund.
Minister, whilst we know, in a capitalistic economy, that child poverty is heavily influenced by earned incomes and the now slashed UK welfare benefit levels for families, what support have our partners in local government asked for, and what additional support can the Welsh Labour Government give to blocking and stopping the evil of child poverty?

Julie James AC: Yes, Rhianon, you very accurately represent the real scourge of poverty in a young person's life, and, well before this crisis, in the months leading up, in fact, to the crisis—although we didn't know they were leading up to the crisis at the time—I commissioned a review to explore what more Welsh Government could do to reduce costs and boost incomes for families across Wales. The review also looked at investment in programmes and services that contribute to tackling poverty for children and young people, to ensure that, as far as possible, they were improving the outcomes for people who find themselves in poverty. The impact of the coronavirus pandemic on levels of poverty, including child poverty, in the short to medium term, is unfortunately likely to be substantial. It's against that backdrop and alongside recovery plans that recommendations following the review have been identified and subsequently discussed by Cabinet. Details of the agreed actions, along with the key findings of the review, will be published before the end of July.
Local authorities from across Wales have contributed valuable evidence to that review via a range of engagement activities, and they're obviously a key partner as we start to implement the recommendations. These include practical steps we can take to maximise income and reduce essential living costs for families living in poverty across Wales.

Planning Regulations

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the use of planning regulations in order to support businesses to come out of the current lockdown? OQ55319

Julie James AC: Llyr, I think I got the gist of that question, but my translation didn't work, so I'll give it my best, but I hope it does work by the time your supplementary comes around.
So, thank you for the question. Our priority has been to get local planning authorities working again, so business can progress any development proposals requiring planning permission through the planning system. To assist this, regulations were made on 19 May to enable developers to progress planning applications for major development.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for your answer. I hope that the translation equipment is working by now. We're all aware—. No, it isn't.

Julie James AC: Sorry, Llyr. I'm not getting any translation.

Yes, sorry.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: We're very aware that the requirements of social distancing, whether it's 2m or 1m, actually, are causing a great deal of problems for many businesses that either have reopened or, of course, hope to reopen soon. Now, I'm sure we all know of examples where wide pavements outside of shops could be utilised in terms of cafes and coffee shops. There are parking spaces that could be used to prioritise the needs of those businesses over traffic, and there are town and village squares that could be utilised for cafes and coffee shops during the day and, potentially then, restaurants and, when the time comes, pubs in the evenings. So, I just want to understand, really, what you're doing in terms of working with local authorities to not only ensure that they can be as creative and as flexible as possible in allowing some of this to happen, but to actually encourage them, proactively, to make sure that it does.

Julie James AC: A very good question. We've been listening to businesses, and I issued guidance in the middle of March in response to concerns expressed at that point by the food and drink sector that required flexibility in terms of delivery times and opening hours. When restaurants, pubs and cafes had to close, we were fortunate that planning regulations in Wales already allowed businesses to operate as takeaways if they wanted to, so we didn't have to proactively do that; that was already allowed.
Part of what you've just discussed there is to do with licensing regulations, and not planning regulations, but we're working very hard with the local authorities—my colleague Hannah Blythyn has been working very hard in terms of town centres, in particular—to understand what is needed, alongside the local authorities. We've just issued a safer public places guide, which is a guide to how pubs and restaurants, cafes, other areas, might utilise outside spaces in a good way, whilst making sure that all disabilities and equalities issues are taken into account, because, obviously, if you have a visual impairment or you rely heavily on other signage, then it's important to make sure that that's not obstructed and that people have clear pathways and so on.
We've been working very hard with the industry, and various representatives of the industry, and with local authorities to get the best out of that, and we're looking to see what combination of national and local regulations we need to put in place to enable that, both on a temporary basis and, for some of the greening issues, on a more permanent basis in our towns and cities as we come out of the crisis together.

Just to let everybody know, the translation connection's just dropped out, so we're checking on the back-up. So, just for the time being, I think we're without translation. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Could I just add to what Llyr was just saying? It's great to see, in the last couple of days, some of the shops along Pencoed and Pontycymer and Maesteg reopening cautiously, and people coming out to cautiously spend money on our local high streets. But it is a real issue over the crowded pavement spaces and so on, and I just wonder what discussions both you and the Deputy Minister are having not just with local authorities, but with town and community councils—big and small—because they are very often best placed to understand the local environment. Now, they could feed into the work that's being done by local authorities to rebuild in a different way towards the new normal in our centres and give viable businesses—and lessen the risk of spreading the virus as well.

Julie James AC: Yes, I entirely agree with you, Huw. Myself and Hannah have been working very hard with both the industry, with local authorities and town and community councils and with other stakeholders in the food and drink industry, and in the regeneration thing, to pull a number of strands together to get a better 'normal' when we finally come out of the pandemic. There are a number of things we're trying to achieve. We're obviously wanting our hospitality industry to be able to be up and running in a safe way that allows them to conduct their business, and frankly allows us to all get out and see our friends and family in a convivial setting while making sure that we all stay safe.
But there's also something about regenerating our town centres and our small market towns and small villages that were already struggling in some respects, and it's about bringing those things together. So, my colleague Hannah Blythyn leads on that, but we've been working very hard across a number of sectors and stakeholders to do that. She's just currently taking part in a rapid review of that, of everything that pulls that together in order to do that. I'm sure she'd be more than happy to answer questions on that another time. She's been working very hard on it.

Angela Burns AC: Good afternoon, Minister. You will be aware that many developments that are granted planning permission are required to start within a certain time frame due to either specific conditions of the permission or through general conditions. They normally have a number of years in which they have to start. And you'll be aware that if work doesn't start, the permission will lapse. Applying for a fresh planning permission is time consuming and costly. One option to solve this problem could be for Welsh Government to introduce a new permitted development right to enable planning permission to be carried forward for a fixed time. I believe it is within competence, and I wondered if you would review this issue, because it's especially important to keep housing developments on track. I don't think that this was covered in your letter of 27 March to local authorities, or in the guidance to planning authorities—not as far as I could understand it, anyway.

Julie James AC: No, I don't think it was, but we have been working very hard with local authorities to understand what that might look like, and how many schemes might be caught up in that. We're looking not to have a blanket permitted development right across Wales for particular sorts of development, but to work with local authorities and their local development plans on identified housing sites to see what development rights need to be put in place, either in order to preserve a planning consent or to bring it forward rapidly, because as you know, we very much want to have a green housing-led recovery in that regard.
So, we are working very hard with them, but on the basis of site-specific issues rather than a blanket across Wales, because that's completely unmanageable. So, yes, we have a number of funds and sites that we're looking at, and once we've got to the end of what we're doing, we'll be ready to put a statement out and then I'm very happy to share. But actually, Angela, if you've got any specific sites in question, we're very interested in looking at them, so if you want to just let me know what they are, I'd be very happy to share that with you.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Thank you. We'll now turn to spokespersons' questions, and the first this afternoon is Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Last Sunday, all Members of the Senedd received an e-mail from a Flintshire resident whose complaint against Flintshire council regarding a development in Flintshire had been upheld by the ombudsman for Wales, but who stated that there needs to be an inquiry into the approval of this development, with the officers involved being held to account. I've received several similar complaints regarding approved developments in Flintshire.
How do you therefore respond to another Flintshire resident who said that county hall planning departments often struggle to defend existing green barrier demarcations when faced with demands from large scale speculative estate developers—[Inaudible.]—of yet more swathes of of easy-to-build private houses on our precious fields and countryside? As we stand to lose yet more of our finite green barrier land, what measures can the Minister put in place that will urgently mandate that Welsh planning policy will affirm the robust conservation of all existing open spaces and defined green barriers?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Mark. I'm not going to comment on the specific issue, because we know that it's the subject of a series of complaints, and so on. So, I'm not going to comment on that for obvious reasons. But, in terms of the more general remarks around protecting green space and so on, we're working with authorities across Wales, both to get their planning departments up and running and to ensure that we do a proper audit of skills across Wales. Many local authorities have been forced by austerity into stripping back what are termed, in inverted commas, non-essential services, although actually, of course, they turn out to be essential in the end. So we're very much looking to strengthen that on both a regional and local basis, and to assist from Welsh Government with officials who can help reskill, or help regionalise the shortages of skills in those areas.
You'll know that the most recent edition of 'Planning Policy Wales' emphasises place and communities as very much at the heart of it, and very much at the heart of that is the green infrastructure that you talk about—not just greenbelt, but green infrastructure right through our planning developments and our towns. So, I'm very happy that we've done that at that level. We're about to publish the national development framework. It's a little delayed because of the pandemic, so I hope that that will be published very soon, and then, we'll be working with local authorities to put together regional strategic plans to do just what you said, which is to protect—to make sure that we have the right planning in the right place, the right development in the right place, and to protect the countryside where that's what the local development plan and the regional plan indicate.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. In November 2017 and again in May 2019, you wrote to Flintshire council stating that it was extremely disappointing that that authority had submitted a further request to extend the time taken to prepare its local development plan, especially in the light of previous assurances, and that this was particularly pertinent as that authority is continuing to suffer the pressure of speculative planning applications in the fields due to the lack of an adopted development plan. And, the longer the situation persisted, it would be to the greater detriment of local communities and the reputation of the planning system. That's the end of your quote.
The Coronavirus Act 2020 introduced flexibility for councils to carry out their democratic and governance arrangements differently and proportionately, given the challenges faced, but as you know, this was not intended to diminish the voice of communities or weaken democratic accountability and representation. How, therefore, will you ensure that councils without LDPs do not pursue a challenging use of the emergency procedures to get them approved?

Julie James AC: We've been working very hard with local councils across Wales, both with LDPs and without, more particularly those who are in the formative phases of the LDP, to ensure that they were first of all able to function at all—and that goes for all planning authorities across Wales. There is a series of regulations in place about allowing virtual meetings for planning committees, virtual site visits, and all that kind of stuff, different notification procedures, and so on, and then, at the LDP level, to understand from them what effect the pandemic was having on the timetable and to put in place better plans to bring that forward. That's a piece of work that's ongoing and, as we ease out of the lockdowns, we're working with each local authority to make sure that we get a reviewed and properly resourced plan to get their LDPs in place. And the reason for that, Mark, is exactly what you pointed out: that authorities that don't have a plan in place tend to be subject to speculative developments that they find more difficult to fend off, because they don't have an adopted plan. So we've been working very hard with them to do that. Flintshire is not the only authority in that position, so we're working with a number of authorities across Wales to get there.
And then, at the same time, we're encouraging them to work together with partners across north Wales or the particular region that the authority happens to be in, to put a strategic plan in place, because where a strategic plan is put in place, we will work with them on what we're starting to call 'LDP light' procedures, so that they're not duplicated from the strategic plan. We're very much hoping that Flintshire, alongside a number of other authorities, will come along with us on that journey.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, new regulations came into force in Wales last month in respect of the pre-application consultation for developments of national significance during this pandemic. Although these claim to introduce safeguards to guarantee that the revised process is as inclusive as possible, concern has been raised with me that they will allow applicants to conduct a consultation virtually and that, given both the potential impact of developments of national significance on communities and the need for the public to understand the technical aspects of these, virtual consultations do not constitute a meaningful consultation and breach the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. How, therefore, do you respond to concerns that applicants with previously delayed physical consultations are now announcing virtual remote consultations, avoiding the need for face-to-face interaction, and that this discriminates against older and disabled people who do not have access to the internet, or who may not be competent or confident on the phone?

Julie James AC: Obviously, these are things that have to be balanced, and so we were very aware that there were a number of things that simply could not progress that were integral to infrastructure development in particular areas and we needed to bring those forward. And at the same time, we wanted to make sure that people had the best chance to be consulted and bring forward their views on that. So, we introduced a number of areas in which you could do a virtual consultation. We also, though, said that local authorities had to facilitate having paper plans in place, and facilitate people being able to see those where that was something that they wanted to do.
I'd be the first to say, Mark, that that's not a perfect system, but we needed to do something in order to be able to ensure that these things were still happening, and that they weren't all completely on stop because, as you know, we're likely to be facing an economic downturn at the end of this pandemic, and if we'd absolutely stopped all development during this period, we would've been in an even worse position. So, it's about trying to hit the right compromise between getting democratic engagement in the planning process, which I've been committed to throughout my career, not just as a Member of the Senedd but as a lawyer practicing in that field—it's something I'm completely committed to. So, it was about trying to hit the right point of allowing it to proceed and still ensuring democratic engagement.
If you have any specific examples where you think that that's not working, or you think that people have been specifically disenfranchised, I'm very happy to look at the specifics. Obviously, I'm not aware of them at the moment.

And Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, as we move out of lockdown, there is a risk of seeing local outbreaks—

Julie James AC: I'm sorry, Delyth, I can't hear you at all.

Delyth Jewell AC: Can you hear me if I speak here, Minister?

Are you wearing your headphones?

Delyth Jewell AC: No. Can you hear me now?

That's better now, yes.

Delyth Jewell AC: Okay, I'll get closer to the—. So, Minister, as we move out of lockdown, there's a risk of seeing local outbreaks emerge, as has happened in Ynys Môn;there could be no option but to impose local lockdowns. I'd ask what specific support you're giving Ynys Môn to help them with the current situation that they're facing and, more generally, if there will be a policy of providing extra support to local authorities that face similar outbreaks in the future. If local lockdowns are needed, that could necessitate the need for local furlough and additional support.

Julie James AC: Yes, we're working very hard with Ynys Môn. I've been in contact with Llinos, the leader there who's been working very hard in difficult circumstances. I spoke to Llinos on Sunday, we had a meeting with her on Monday morning and I have another one later today and another tomorrow to just make sure that the situation is under control, and the local authority has the support that they need. There are a series of official-level meetings that include the meetings of the strategic control group, as it's called, and a range of other meetings that go on as part of the gold command structure in order to make sure that everything is in place as it should be. I'm pleased to say that the test, trace and protect appears to have been working very well, obviously, staffed by Ynys Môn staff. We've done it as a public enterprise here in Wales and that seems to be working well.
Contact tracing has worked well and we've managed to contact the vast majority of people who've come into contact with the virus. We're working hard—. Some of the things you mentioned, of course, are in the hands of the UK Government—we're not able to put a furlough scheme in place—but I understand that the Prime Minister said that they are working on local lockdown plans now as England comes out of its easing procedure. So, we'll be working alongside them on the things that we rely on the UK Government for, and in the meantime, we are putting in place a series of regulations here that allow specific things to happen in particular areas, if there is a need to do that. I would like to emphasise that we don't think that there is a need just now, but we're obviously keeping a very careful eye on it.
So, at the moment in Wales, my understanding is that we have two outbreaks and an incident, which is based on the level of infection that we have, but the local authorities involved are all working very well with us and the teams on the ground to make sure that we have containment. This language is new to all of us, but my understanding is that that's all in place. I'm meeting, as I said, with Llinos and her team with Vaughan Gething and myself at five o'clock today.

Delyth Jewell AC: Right, thank you, Minister. I welcome what you've just said. As you alluded to in your answer there, local authorities are playing a key role in the test, track and protect system, but it's been observed that another element should be added to that system,and that is 'support'. It's clear that low wages, insecure work and poor—well, the failures in the welfare system, have significantly undermined the effectiveness of self-isolation as a public health measure. Now, many workers across Wales who should be self-isolating may feel under pressure by poor employers, or because of financial pressures, to actually carry on working instead. Could I ask what work you're doing with the economy Minister to ensure that a full package of support could be tailored for anyone asked to self-isolate, as that will inevitably lessen the burden on local authorities who are co-ordinating so much of the contact-tracing system?

Julie James AC: Yes, we're very well aware of some of the difficulties, and this particular outbreak is obviously associated with a meat-packing factory, and you'll be aware that that actually seems to a bit of a feature of the industry; we've had a couple of other outbreaks on the continent and so on. So, there's a review that my colleague Lesley Griffithsis undertaking here in Wales, but in conjunction with other Ministers from across Britain, and, actually, on the European continent, to understand what the specifics of that industry are that are causing that. It's possible to guess—it's cold and it's damp and there are a lot of metal surfaces and so on—but we need to understand exactly what's happened in this particular incident, and we also need to understand what the pattern of employment is, as you say, and what happens to people who are asked to self-isolate, not least, actually, because we want the industry to survive, and we don't want it to go out of business because it doesn't have a workforce, but we also want the workforce to be secure and able to self-isolate so that we can contain the incident. So, you're absolutely right to identify that.
Some of the measures that you suggested there I would absolutely agree with you should be put in place, but they're obviously not in our devolved competence. So, we have been talking to the UK Government about making sure that people have rapid access to universal credit. We lobby them constantly on the five-week wait, for example, which is obviously very difficult in those circumstances, and we're maximising people's access to other incomes and support mechanisms; there's a range of things that the local authorities can do to do that. Each incident is likely to be different, so we're very much trying not to have a one-size-fits-all response as well because it depends on the nature of the workforce and people's living conditions and so on. I understand that, in this instance, a number of the workers at the factories live in houses in multiple occupation and so on, which has particular issues associated with it. So, we're working on that guidance, alongside the local authorities, to put what we can in place, and my colleague Hannah Blythyn has written a number of times to the UK Government on the welfare reforms that we'd need, and we're making sure that we keep the pressure up on them as well.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you. Diolch. Finally, Minister, local authorities are working with health boards to co-ordinate antibody test programmes for NHS staff and teachers. No care home residents or staff have so far got those antibody tests. Now, I understand, in Gwent, cases of COVID-19 in hospitals have decreased significantly, but in the last week there were new cases in 29 care homes. Now, there may well be a good reason for not providing these tests, but as the care sector has felt so betrayed so often during the pandemic, at great cost, could you explain why local authorities are not currently being asked to provide those antibody tests to care home staff, as those test results might help us understand the levels of exposure that care homes have been facing these past few weeks?

Julie James AC: Okay. So, that's not at all in my portfolio; that's obviously for my colleague Vaughan Gething, and I can't pretend in any way to be an expert in the different testing regimes or the percentages or anything else. My understanding is that those tests aren't particularly useful to individuals; they're more useful to the Government to understand where the virus has been and what the spread might have been. They're quite invasive tests; they require taking a vial of blood from people and so on, so they're not a finger prick or a swab in your cheek, and it doesn't tell the individual very much because, as yet, as I understand it, we don't know, if you've had the disease, whether you've necessarily got immunity or how long it lasts for and so on.
I understand that there's a document going out to school staff about the test, and explaining what it does and why people should or shouldn't have it and so on, and I don't see any reason why we can't share that with Assembly Members—sorry, with Members of the Senedd. Andso I'll make sure that that happens, Delyth, because I cannot at all pretend to be an expert in that.

Homelessness

Mike Hedges AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on how homelessness has been reduced since the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic? OQ55304

Mike Hedges AC: I'd like to thank the Minister for that response. I would also like to publicly compliment those employed by local authorities and the third sector who have worked on homelessness, to ensure that those who do not want to sleep on the street do not have to. I am—I'm sure the Minister is—concerned that there are some, despite all the best efforts of local authorities and third sector organisations, who have decided to stay sleeping on the streets. Does the Minister agree with me that, at the end of this pandemic, we cannot return to the pre-pandemic level of street homelessness, and that we need to ensure that action is taken long before the point of people becoming homeless and having to live on the street?

Julie James AC: Yes, Mike, I'm absolutely delighted to agree with you on that. We've been working very hard, across all sectors in Wales, to ensure that, as I say, more than 800 people have been housed during the initial stages of the pandemic. We also have very high presentations of people arriving at local authority doors every week since the pandemic started, and accelerating slightly at the moment, as the lockdown starts to ease. I cannot thank enough local authority partners, third sector partners, everyone, really, on the ground, who have all pulled together in a collaborative way, which we should be really proud of.
Only yesterday I met with all of the cabinet members for housing from across Wales. We had a really good discussion about where we are so far, what measures have been put in place to ensure that people are all in—as the crisis slogan has it—and then what we can do to move to phase 2, to ensure that people have the right kind of accommodation going forward, and, much more importantly, actually, are surrounded by the right kinds of services. Because what this crisis has done is it's allowed us to reach people who were otherwise unreachable, with services that they badly needed, to get them in touch with those services, and to get them to trust the people who are delivering the services. So, it's given us an opportunity to contact people who would otherwise have taken months and months and months to get into those services. And so we're determined to build on that, and build on the hub approach to those services, and the collaborative way that local authorities, health boards and third sector partners have worked together.
This is, though, easy to say and very hard to deliver. So, we're working really hard with local authorities on their phase 2 approach, which is a real mixture of things, including new build, taking private sector rented accommodation into the social sector, investments schemes, making sure that void turnover is as fast as humanly possible, and just using every avenue that we have in front of us to ensure that we don't have a return to the streets.

David Melding AC: I'm very pleased indeed to note the progress that's been made in this area in Wales, and, indeed, in England. Now, in England, yesterday, the UK Government announced that a further £105 million of funding will be made available, most of it new money, so that the scheme to help rough-sleepers can be extended. And the BBC has reported that there will be a consequential from this decision in England, where they hope to aim much of that extra support at the type of wraparound care and support that rough-sleepers often need so that they can sustain a housing tenancy of some sort. Can you give us the assurances that you will take a similar approach to that consequential funding that's likely to come to Welsh Government?

Julie James AC: Well, David, as you know, we're a little nervous about consequentials until we've actually got our sticky fingers on them in the bank. I heard the announcement with great glee, and I immediately asked my officials to start the process of ensuring that we got hold of the money. So, we're on that—we'd very much like to have that money. But in the meantime, you'll know that we've already put £20 million into it, and we've got £10 million capital on that as well, and we've got a series of approaches that mirror the—well, actually, I think the English system is mirroring ours, across Wales. I also heard Dame Louise Casey talking on a radio programme about her role in it. I was very pleased to see that all of the measures that she was discussing were things that we'd already put in train here in Wales. And the reason we were able to do that is that we had the homelessness action group that Jon Sparkes chaired for us. They worked cross-sector in Wales, looking at best practice in this regard, and we've been able to accept and implement all of their recommendations. So, I'm very grateful to the group of people who worked so hard for us on that as well. We've accepted in principle all of the action group's recommendations, and we remain committed to matching that pace and energy.
So, I very much hope the consequential does come our way, and that we can make use of it, but we're well advanced with the planning. I'd like to commend, in particular, the local authorities who have already talked to us about the phase 2 planning. In particular, there are a number of presentations from local authorities about their thinking, which I'm very happy to share with Members of the Senedd as soon as they're available, because I know, David, you in particular would be very interested to see those, as they emerge.

Caroline Jones AC: Minister, as I've said many times before, one of the silver linings to come out of this pandemic has been the Government's impetus to end the scourge of homelessness. And yesterday I attended a virtual meeting with Swansea Council, and I'd like to congratulate the leader and the councillors of Swansea Council for securing accommodation for many people who found themselves without homes, as well as providing the important wraparound service for those with co-ocurring issues.
Unfortunately, the economic impacts of the pandemic have yet to show their full force, and sadly, this is going to have a bigger impact on young people, who are already having difficulty finding employment. Minister, do you agree that your current social housing targets will be inadequate going forward, and will you outline what steps you are taking to address the inevitable social housing shortfall? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Yes, Caroline, I'm very happy to join with you in commending Swansea Council. As I said, councils right across Wales have worked very hard, but in particular the councils that are pinch points for homelessness, so Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Wrexham have been particularly hard hit. That's not to say that other councils haven't had a lot of input and their own problems and so on, but they've been particularly hard hit as the cities. And Swansea have done a remarkable job in housing a large number of people with complex needs. I take my hat off to the staff on the ground who are doing that work, because it's hard and difficult to do and they've done a cracking job.
And you're absolutely right that part of the response to this, and to make sure that people don't go back to the streets, is the building of sufficient social housing to make sure that people can get the housing they need. We're very, therefore, pleased to say that we have a large number of what are called 'modern methods of construction' factoriesright across Wales. Members of the Senedd will be getting, in their inboxes, a small video from my department, alongside something called 'killer facts', which tell you all about modern methods of construction and what their benefits are as opposed to traditional methods of construction. And one of the real benefits of them is how fast they go up. So, houses are built in a factory on a level, in the warm; they're able to employ large numbers of people and they can socially distance—they've been working throughout the crisis. We were able to expand those factories pretty rapidly. They're geographically located all around Wales. So, we're able to employ local people to do it, we have Welsh supply chains, in the main, for them, and we're working on making sure that the supply chains across the piece are Welsh, and we can rapidly put them up on garage sites, at the back of developments, and on small outlying plots across Wales, where there are services already, and the build time is somewhere around 16 to 18 weeks, so it's quite phenomenal.
So, that will very much be part of what we're doing, as well as accelerating the 'normal'—if I can put that in inverted commas—building of social houses, which we have in train, and then looking to use any money that I can get my hands on to accelerate the capital developments there, including a range of things that I want Members to be aware of, because I want them to be able to push them in their own constituencies. So, we're looking to take private sector homes into the social sector, offering people at least five years of the local housing allowance rent, to maintain the home throughout at a standard and pass it back to the landlord in good condition at the end. So, there are no worries about voids or management or anything else. It's a very good deal—five years or longer so that we can give people secure accommodation in those buildings, bringing empty, private sector accommodation back in and using it for social housing, and working with a group of investors to do that, because, as you know, many people are not getting much of a return on their money sitting in a bank account, but this is a good way of getting a return on your money, if that's what you're looking for. I very much acknowledge that we have a large number of good landlords across Wales who only own one or two houses, who might be very pleased to work with us in this social way to assist people, but also to get a regular income for themselves without the worry, because I know that's what they want.
So, we're willing to look pretty much at any scheme that comes forward. So, if Members are aware of anything in their own area, I'd be only too delighted to hear from you.

Welsh Government's Relationship with Local Authorities

Paul Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's relationship with local authorities during the Covid-19 pandemic? OQ55311

Julie James AC: Yes, with great pleasure, Paul. I'm really grateful to local authority leaders for the close working relationship with myself and other Ministers during the COVID-19 pandemic. The regular dialogue has enabled us to jointly tackle problems and deal with urgent issues to protect and assist the public at this difficult time.

Paul Davies AC: I'm grateful for that response, Minister. I recently had a meeting with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and the Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services, and they made it clear that some very good progress has been made in administering grant funding through local authorities to voluntary organisations in light of the COVID-19 pandemic. I understand that funding has reached organisations very quickly, with little bureaucracy, and so it's vital that this good practice continues to take place post pandemic. Minister, what lessons is the Welsh Government learning about some of the good progress that has been made by local authorities in administering grants? And will you commit to continuing this good progress for the future?

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely. I think I said in an earlier answer that it's been quite something watching us come together as a team in this way. This technology was available before, but we didn't use it. We travelled to get together and, consequently, we didn't see each other as often, and very rarely did we see all 22 leaders in one place, for all kinds of complex reasons. But this has enabled us to meet at least once, and sometimes twice, three, four times a week, when the crisis was at its height, and really share good practice and learn from each other and trouble shoot and so on. So, I'm very keen to keep that going.
I've committed to the leaders that I'll continue to meet with them in that forum weekly—at least weekly—for the foreseeable future, and that supplements all of the formal arrangements we have through the partnership council and so on. Officials have been able to do it as well, and so we're able to pick up good practice from across Wales and spread it around, which is what we wanted, and the local authority leaders have been tremendous, actually. We've really worked together well as a team. So, I'm very happy to commit to doing that, Paul, because I think spreading that kind of good practice around is exactly where we want to be.

Questions 5, 7 and 8 have all been grouped. So, question 5, Nick Ramsay.

Additional Resources for Local Authorities

Nick Ramsay AC: 5. Will the Minister provide an update on the additional resources being made available to local authorities to deal with current pressures? OQ55327

Lynne Neagle AC: 7. What assessment has the Minister made of the additional financial pressures facing local government because of the Covid-19 pandemic? OQ55328

Russell George AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the support provided to county, town and community councils during the Covid-19 pandemic? OQ55317

Julie James AC: Thank you, Russell.

Nick Ramsay AC: Nick.

It's not Russell; it's Nick.

Julie James AC: Sorry, Nick. I beg your pardon.

Nick Ramsay AC: We sound very similar.

Julie James AC: You don't all. But, sadly, I didn't bring my glasses with me from Swansea—[Laughter.]—

Nick Ramsay AC: There's no Churchill behind me.

Shall we just move on to the answer?

Julie James AC: I should have spotted that. Sorry. Apologies, Nick. Serious apologies. The pandemic has placed additional financial pressures on local authorities arising from new responsibilities, additional costs and loss of income. We're providing £188 million in funding in support of these and working closely with the WLGA to continue to assess and respond to impacts from the pandemic.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Minister. And we've already heard from other Members about the extra pressures that local authorities are facing at the moment. They're obviously facing a large loss of income and have been now for some months, but also they're facing the additional pressures, as we move forward, of reforming town centres, et cetera, to allow for social distancing. Also, the planning system will be under strain, and there's probably quite a backlog developing in the planning system. So, all of these issues—. What support have you given to local authorities? And what discussions have you had with the WLGA to make sure that, as we come out of the pandemic, local authorities are in a position to deal with the challenges ahead and don't end up actually having more significant problems in the future than they have at the moment?

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely. They've faced an enormous range of both pressures and difficulties in loss of income, as you say, and the loss of income is from a range of things, including fees and charges from simple things like car parks and leisure centres, right up to the loss of non-domestic rates income, council tax income—more people claiming council tax relief scheme moneys, for example—and we've yet to see what happens to the collection rates for council tax. So, we've been working very closely with local authorities at official level, and myself with the leaders, and also with the WLGA. I have very, very frequent meetings with the WLGA and its leadership and its officials to do that. So, for example, right now, we're currently working on a piece that seeks to understand what the impact of the increased demand on the council tax relief fund is and what the collection rates might look like so we that we can start to put in place measures to protect against some of the ramifications of that.
Right at the beginning of the pandemic, we brought forward the May and June revenue support grant payments, which is a total of £526 million, into April, to support local authorities' cash flow in the initial stages of the pandemic, and they stepped up to that plate,because we didn’t want them to worry about cash flow while they did the right thing, and they've very seriously stepped up to that plate.
The hardship fund provides £110 million for the additional costs, and a further £78 million specifically for loss of income. And we've been providing a series of other moneys into local authorities for some of the initiatives that you mentioned, and, of course, they've still got all the transport grants and all the rest of it that they had in the past.
So, what we've been doing is working very well as a team to understand, right across a range of pressures, what that looks like and to be able to meet those as they come forward, and to work with local authorities in particular, actually, because they've taken on things like test, trace and protect for us and, as you know, they administer the shielded food box scheme for us. And we need to understand how those brilliant things they've done really well with are staffed up as we start to ease the lockdownand staff go back to their normal duties. So, we need to understand the impact of that. So, we’ve worked very closely on that all the way through.

Lynne Neagle AC: Minister, I've said to you before that I think local authorities have been outstanding in their response to the COVID emergency, and I am really grateful to Torfaen council for everything that they've done. But I am very clear that they are under immense financial pressures now, and nowhere more so than in social care. I very much welcome the additional £40 million that was announced for local authorities for social care, but they have so far only seen some of that money, and I do believe it is crucial now that local authorities see the cold, hard cash in this area. Can I ask if you will discuss this with the Deputy Minister to see what action Government can take to ensure that as much money as possible reaches the front line as soon as possible? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Lynne. I have regular meetings with both the Minister for health and the Deputy Minister for health, and in fact we had one only last night to discuss this very issue. The system so far has been on a claims basis. It's not distributed in quite the way that you would normally see moneys. So, what we've been doing is asking local authorities to claim back additional expenses they have as a result of increasing commissioning rates or helping to assist with voids or assisting with additional costs that various providers have, both in-house and out-house. And indeed, last night, we were just discussing, going forward, what we’re going to do with another tranche of money that we're hoping to get in order to continue to support care homes as we work through the pandemic, because it's absolutely imperative not only that we have the best care in our care homes, but that they're able to financially survive and still be there at the other side of the pandemic, so that we don't have people disrupted for no reason. So, that's very much an ongoing conversation between myself and the Ministers, and between us and local authorities and the care sector. And I can tell you that we discuss it very, very regularly indeed.

Russell George AC: Minister, you've now got a question from me. [Laughter.] Thank you. Minister, you've outlined support for local authorities, but I've had a number of town and community councils contact me, and I'm aware that some of those councils are suffering significantly—perhaps some more than others. So, if I do give the example of Welshpool Town Council, for example, it suffered loss from income losses through its day centre, the closure of the tourist information centre, the market, and from letting out its community facilities. So, income loss may well go into the hundreds of thousands of pounds for this particular town council. I appreciate each town and community council will be different, but what specific funding and support might be available for this specific tier of government?

Julie James AC: So, the community councils—I can confirm that those facing the most financial hardship through lost income are eligible to draw on the hardship fund. So, that's available to them.
But, like for principal councils, we expect community and town councils who are experiencing lost income to look, in the first instance, at what support they can draw on immediately: so, such things as the furlough scheme, job retention scheme, grant from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs where appropriate, utilising reserves, applying to the principal council to bring forward precept instalments to ease cash flow and so on—so, that's exactly the same set of rules as we apply to the principal councils—and then to come to us with a set-out spreadsheet, if you like, of what the lost income is and what mitigating arrangements they've put in place, what they've been able to do, so that we can consider it as part of the claims system that we have for the hardship fund. So, they're treated exactly the same as the principal councils in that regard.

Thank you. We go back to the questions on the order paper. Question 6—Jack Sargeant.

Flintshire Town Centre Recovery

Jack Sargeant AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's plans for town centre recovery in Flintshire post-Covid-19? OQ55305

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you. Transforming towns across Wales and helping them to thrive, not simply survive, is a priority for the Welsh Government. This is, of course, more pressing than ever in the current circumstances. A ministerial town centre action group, underpinned by regional groups, will address the impact of COVID-19 and steer action to support the recovery of towns, including towns across Flintshire.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. Town centres like Buckley in my own constituency were struggling pre coronavirus. Now, a key part to a thriving town centre is a bank, and, as you will know, Buckley has sadly lost all of its banks. Now, I have been campaigning for a community bank to anchor this town centre, and the impact of COVID makes this even more important. Will the Deputy Minister engage with me and the local community to see what Welsh Government funding is available to make sure Buckley thrives again?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Absolutely. I know the community bank in Buckley is an issue that the Member has been campaigning on vigorously for a number of months now. We can see the impact not just that would have in terms of to mitigate against the economic challenges we may face post COVID-19, but in terms of actually how we both regenerate and provide footfall back into our town centres. As we take forward the town centre first principle, the co-location of services is going to be central to realising that and actually looking at actually how we best use our town centres and how we best drive the experience and get people back into towns.
I think it's worth the Member noting that, particularly under our transforming towns capital programme, investment has been targeted at a number of priority towns, which were identified by local authorities, and local authorities across north Wales have previously identified those towns and looked to the likes of Holywell and Shotton within Flintshire, but there'll be shortly an opportunity for local authorities to reprioritise their town focus should they wish to—so, if I can perhaps encourage the Member to have those conversations with the local authority and other representatives.
And I do remember—one final point—that I did previously promise the Member that I would come and visit Buckley, and I'm sure, if circumstances allow, that we can rearrange that visit, because I'm keen in this piece of work now to make sure we find greater ways to involve people, organisations and businesses in communities to best be enabled and empowered to have a greater stake and say in their success in the future.

Thank you. Llywydd.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to the Minister and the Deputy Minister.

5. Topical Questions

The next item is the topical questions and the first question is a question to the Minister for Health and Social Services and is to be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

COVID-19: 2 Sisters Factory

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the cases of Covid-19 that stem from the 2 Sisters factory in Llangefni? TQ449

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I have today issued a written statement on the two recent outbreaks centred on meat and food processing sites in north Wales. We're keeping both of these under very close observation and management. All necessary action to protect the public is and will continue to be taken.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. I am grateful for those statements. There is clearly concern locally as a result of the events of last week. The Government have said that they are now looking into the safety of the food production sector, and that's a good thing. May I ask why this kind of assessment hadn't happened before now, and has the Health and Safety Executive been effective enough in the Minister's view? And will there be very different advice now on how these sites should operate? Because this plant can't reopen again without an assurance that staff are safe.
In terms of the broader community, can I ask how confident is the Minister that the early warning system, if you like, or the test and trace system, is going to be able to identify broad community transference at an early enough stage so that any decisions that may be needed in terms of tightening lockdown can be made in good time? There is good collaboration on a regional level in terms of the trace element, but some members of staffhave waited many days for the result of their tests, which undermines confidence in the system. And finally, may I turn to the need to comply with the requirements of self-isolation? It was very important to have confirmation that the company was going to continue to pay the staff in full during this period, but what further steps will the Government take to ensure that messages are heard and that support is provided in order to ensure that that crucial compliance is high?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the series of questions. On the broader point about advice within the sector, as with every other sector of the economy, those who would have carried on operating would have had to consider how they could remain COVID compliant. There have been conversations with both the Food Standards Agency for their role in food hygiene and the Health and Safety Executive about the way that the plants were operating, together with those parts of the labour in the factory that were organised and unionised.
We're looking again at that because of the reality that we have these three incidents. There is an incident in Merthyr, which is different to the two outbreaks in north Wales, but it would be an odd thing if we didn't take at this point in time the opportunity to review and revise the guidance we're providing, because there are examples of good practice within the sector here in Wales. So, we'll build on the review that my colleague Lesley Griffiths referred to in questions to her earlier today, across the sector; we'll take work from the Food Standards Agency and then provide that revised rapid guidance back to the sector before the end of this week. I spoke with the Health and Safety Executive yesterday; clarity in their respective roles and they're involved in the outbreak management oversight arrangements in both sites within north Wales. They're plugged in to the work that we're doing, and they'll also be consulted briefly before we issue that guidance.
When it comes to test, trace, protect, I think the issues that you refer to matter to each individual person who's got a delay, but actually, we've got a very high level of quick turnaround in terms of the testing outcome, so over 97 per cent of people in Llangefni, for example, have had their test results back within a day. But in each case where there's been a delay, there's an opportunity to learn and improve, and I don't try to—[Inaudible.]—from that, but actually, 97 per cent within a day is a very high level of performance.
And when it comes to the broader point about isolation, this is difficult because, as I know other Members have referred to previously, when you have relatively low pay, as I referred to yesterday in my statement in a press conference, and people are making choices about statutory sick pay and potentially not receiving pay, that's difficult and we've got some anecdotal experience in the early trials of test, trace, protect as well. That'll be part of the conversation that we have with the sector more broadly, which I have later this week with both employers and the trade union side, but TTP has been a really important factor in containing these outbreaks to date.
If we didn't have the test, trace, protect system, then we would have seen almost certainly much greater transference, not just within the workforce, but within community transmission, which we haven't seen to date. It's also been a national success story, because the contact tracing team on Anglesey, for example, have been supported by the contact tracing team in Swansea bay in particular; and it's the same with colleagues in Wrexham,they've been largely supported by both Cwm Taf Morgannwg and Cardiff and Vale. So, a real national redeployment of energy and resource to make sure we keep people as safe and well as possible, and I'm very proud of the fact that in this first but very difficult stress test of our ability to carry on successfully contact tracing and giving people advice and support, test, trace, protect has been a crucial part of our response.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank you for that, Minister, and thank you for mentioning Merthyr Tydfil in your response to Rhun ap Iorwerth? Because I was very disturbed, but not surprised to hear reports over the weekend of significant numbers of people testing positive for COVID-19 at the Kepak meat processing plant in Merthyr, and perhaps even more alarmed to find that this has actually been going on since around April time. You'll be aware that I've been concerned for some time about the levels of COVID infections in the Merthyr area, which have been worryingly high, even when infections elsewhere in Wales have been falling, and I've been asking what work epidemiologists have been doing on identifying the causes. I've always had concerns about Kepak due to their working practices, their lack of social distancing and how they were going to ensure the safety of workers who were working closely together and in conditions where the virus thrived. And Gerald Jones MP and I wrote to the company about this at the beginning of lockdown, and while we received assurances from the company, the unions and the staff there remained concerned about what was going on. I'm aware that Public Health Wales, Merthyr council and the Health and Safety Executive met yesterday to discuss the COVID infections linked to Kepak, but what my constituents will want to know is whether the high levels of infections across the area are in any way related to this factory, and if so, what action is now being taken to close down this operation, isolate the staff and ensure that we have no further spread beyond the people that are employed there.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question from Dawn Bowden, and to be fair, Dawn has raised consistently with me over a period of time concerns about that broader community transmission rate within Merthyr Tydfil. The difficulty we face with Merthyr Tydfil is that the scale and the spread is different to the two sites in north Wales. The numbers are different and we're clear that they're centred or associated with the two sites in north Wales; it isn't as clear in Merthyr Tydfil. There have been 33 tests since April that have been associated with or have a link with the Kepak site in Merthyr, and one of the things that the incident team are looking to understand rapidly is whether that is about the operation of the site or whether it's actually about community or whether it's a mix of the two. There will be a site visit, and that's again the local authority working with health agencies, but also working with both the FSA and the Health and Safety Executive, and we should know much more not just about that visit, but the learning from that—what else we need to do within the sector to keep the operation as safe as possible.
When it comes to any site across Wales, it is of course one of the options to close that site on public health grounds. In Llangefni the employer made the decision to close the site. There are ongoing discussions and there will continue to be an ongoing assessment of whether any business should continue to operate and whether it can operate safely. So, I don't want to try to set up any suggestions or set any expectations, but I wouldn't rule out any measures to be taken to protect the wider public, not just the workforce but the wider public. So, when we have that understanding of what we need to do, and if indeed wider community or workplace measures are required, then I certainly won't be afraid to take those measures, but if people follow the advice they're given by test, trace and protect, then we will have a smart form of lockdown for all those people directly engaged and their households contacts.

Mark Isherwood AC: It's understood, as you know, that 200 staff at the 2 Sisters plant in Llangefni have now tested positive and 97 at Rowan Foods, just down the road from me in Wrexham. How do you respond to the statement by Ynys Môn MP, Virginia Crosbie, that although the initial closure of the 2 Sisters plant for two weeks is vital for the—? In addition to the initial closure, she said it's vital for the safety of the workforce and their families, along with the safety of communities, that the plant remains closed until an independent health and safety audit is carried out and that all recommended safety measures have been implemented. How would you expect this outbreak to impact more widely, where, for example, Anglesey social services were scheduled a home care assessment tomorrow, stating that until the assessment has been completed the department will be unable to confirm the outcome of any request for services? Staff manage such visits with appropriate use of PPE, but when the constituent contacted the Welsh Government, it replied, 'Unless they're providing essential care for you, we're advising everyone to use the phone or internet wherever possible.'

Vaughan Gething AC: On the second point I don't think there is a conflict, because there's the point there about the people who are directly running and delivering that service thinking about the adjustments they need to make for those assessments to continue, and that's actually something that, to be fair to the local government family, they've managed throughout the period of the pandemic. And there's more of that activity taking place as there's greater confidence because of the lower transmission and incidence rates, but also because, of course, for some time now, we've managed to stabilise our supplies of PPE to the broader social care sector.
On your first point, there is a relationship here between both devolved and non-devolved responsibilities. So, health and safety is not a devolved responsibility. It shows though that there is a very practical relationship between our responsibilities here and the way in which we interact with UK agencies. So, the Health and Safety Executive are involved in both of the outbreak management teams and they have a relationship with the incident in Merthyr, and that's exactly as it should be.
As for the headline call for an audit, well, we actually need to see whether that's the right thing to do or not. We need to understand the public health responsibilities and where we are in controlling and running the incident itself, to protect people who are not just associated with that workforce in Llangefni, but the wider community as well. As I said to Dawn Bowden, I wouldn't rule out any steps at this point. We will continue to take decisions that protect people here in Wales in local communities and further afield, and that will be the guiding point. I just don't think that it's helpful, though, to try to respond to an individual suggestion that doesn't appear to have a proper evidence base that it's the right thing to do. That's exactly why we have outbreak management teams drawing together all of those local stakeholders.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank the Member for Ynys Môn for raising this very important question today? Minister, you will know that the company also has a site in Sandycroft in my constituency, and I have raised my concerns directly with them. But, what can the Welsh Government do to ensure that the company implements the necessary safety measures to ensure that they protect the local workforce and the local community in Alyn and Deeside?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I'm well aware that there's a further 2 Sisters plant within your constituency. It's been part of our conversations with the trade union side officials, and part of the reason why it's important for me to have a conversation with the sector, including, of course, employers. So, it will be myself and Lesley Griffiths, with her ministerial responsibilities, engaging in that work. It builds on the review that she's ordered through Food Innovation Wales and the guidance that I will issue within this week, to make clear the things that should not happen and the interventions that could and should be undertaken, but also to highlight that there is good practice within the sector.
The trade union side were very keen to emphasise that they think that there are good employers in this field, and that it's possible to operate with a minimal level of risk. What this really does, though, is that it highlights that COVID has not gone away, and that if people don't follow the guidance that we provide, then there are real consequences. So, I hope that there's a wider message there for the whole public, and not just people working in this one sector of the economy. If you feel unwell and you have one of the symptoms, get a test and self-isolate until you know the result of that test, and make sure your household does the same as well.

I thank the Minister. The next topical question is to be answered by the Education Minister, and is to be asked by Siân Gwenllian.

COVID-19: Reopening Schools

Siân Gwenllian AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement giving an update on the arrangements for reopening schools for four weeks before the summer break? TQ453

Kirsty Williams AC: Presiding Officer, schools will increase operations form Monday to check in, catch up and prepare for the summer and September. Working together, heads, education staff, unions and councils have ensured that we are the only country in the United Kingdom where all pupils will have an opportunity to return to school before the summer break.

Siân Gwenllian AC: We should praise staff and heads in our schools for carefully planning for the reopening of schools from Monday onwards. But, very late in the day, we received the news that there was great confusion as to the fourth week. Shouldn't you have secured the agreement of all parties, including all of the unions, before placing that expectation that schools should open for four weeks? And, in light of the fact that the disagreement continues—it would appear—isn't it your duty to give national leadership on that fourth week?
You should lead, rather than put pressure on local authorities and individual schools to make difficult decisions that will only create confusion and further ill feeling. The situation that has arisen is not fair on the schools, and it's certainly not fair on the pupils who are caught in the middle of all of this.

Kirsty Williams AC: Presiding Officer, Siân Gwenllian is absolutely right to acknowledge the hard work of headteachers the length and breadth of Wales, who have planned so diligently with their staff to provide these opportunities. Members will be aware that I did indeed propose that the summer term should be extended by an additional week and, in lieu of staff working that additional week, that half term in October should be extended by one week. But, as Siân will know, the Welsh Government and I are not the employers in this situation. The employers are the local authorities.That is a matter of fact. If Plaid Cymru have a different way of organising Welsh education in the future, of course, they will be able to make that case. The role of the Welsh Local Government Association was clearly acknowledged in their statement that welcomed my proposals.
Clearly, individual local authorities, on the basis of individual, local circumstances, have come to the conclusion that they will offer three weeks. I am still of the mind that we should maximise and take every advantage of these summer months to increase and provide as much contact face to face between children and their schools at this time. But, I have to acknowledge that local authorities will have made individual decisions. However, I think we should reflect on the issues that—. As I said, individual headteachers and individual members of staff and indeed support staff have been incredibly flexible during this pandemic, working over Easter holidays, half term holidays, weekends, bank holidays to provide care and support for our children at this time, and many are willing to go above and beyond, as ever, in providing support for children.

Suzy—yes, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, as well. When the phased reopening of schools was announced, I asked why it was easier for unions to agree an extra week in July rather than coming back at the end of August, and at that time no-one was able to answer that question. It looks now as if no answer was genuinely sought. While I've got no doubt that some unions perhaps aren't particularly interested in encouraging their members back before September, Siân Gwenllian is quite right—policy is a matter for you, and you have every right to proceed even if you can't take everybody with you. You do need to take some people with you, though, and it's pretty clear that school leaders had taken you at your word and had been preparing for a four-week return. You'll know that staff and families and even directors of education have been rightly angered and frustrated by what are now these dashed expectations.
You're right—there are staff and families who've already gone the extra mile and deserve our unconditional thanks, but who recognise, I think, as you do, that children's well-being for checking in, catching up and preparing was vital. I don't remember local authorities, at that time, demurring from your views, beyond operational worries about things like transport, hygiene and distancing.
So, my first question is: when did directors of education and teachers in particular know that this was optional, because there was nothing in your original announcement to suggest that this was the original plan? Can you also tell us, by 3 June, when you made your announcement, did trade unions tell you before that date that they would discourage members from agreeing to the fourth week? Did councils tell you before that date that they would direct school leaders not to open a fourth week? And did they accept your argument that the well-being of children was best served by a four-week return? Can you tell us about any subsequent conversations with the unions? We're still all very keen to know why so many councils have failed to back you. And then, finally, can you confirm that, should any school leader have the staff and safety measures in place for a fourth week, they can open their school regardless of the view of the council? What is the status of a council direction and can you overrule that in the case of individual and even all schools? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I thank the Member for her questions? Prior to making my announcement of my proposals for extending the summer term by a week, we had secured the agreement of the WLGA, and that proposal was endorsed by all 22 leaders and the directors of education. I was very clear—I think I did a webinar with teaching unions that very evening—that the fourth week would be a voluntary week. It goes above and beyond people's usual terms and conditions. We wanted to treat people fairly, hence offering the time in lieu in the October half term, and it would be a voluntary basis. Many staff and support workers, as well as headteachers, stepped up and were willing to maximise the opportunity for children. However, at a later date, local authorities expressed their concerns that they felt they were not able to secure a fourth week.
With regard to the unions, quite understandably the unions expressed concerns to me, not of the fourth week, although they wanted us to be clear it could only be done on a voluntary basis and we couldn't compel people to do that, and I was quite happy to acknowledge that. The main source of concerns from unions is about the decision to return to school before September. Many union leaders have expressed their desire that schools should not reopen until September, and I've made it very clear that that would leave such a significant gap and a significant amount of time without children being in school, that it was a huge source of concern to me. And given the scientific advice that it was safe to return to school prior to September, I felt it was absolutely necessary to embrace that opportunity and, where at all possible, to maximise the opportunity for children to check in with staff.

Lynne Neagle AC: Minister, I'd like to place on record my personal thanks to you for the absolutely phenomenal effort you have made to maximise children's time in school this summer and, crucially, for putting children first through all of this.
Garnteg school in my constituency have been truly outstanding in lockdown, but we know that the variation in what children have been receiving across Wales has been huge. I'd just like to read Members some words my eight-year-old constituent Florence wrote to me recently when she nominated her teachers at Garnteg as her COVID superheroes:
'Mrs Lewis is still setting us work and helping us learn. I like Mrs Lewis because whenever I need help, I can tell her. She has a little girl called Lily and she joined us on the video call. On the video call, I showed her my dog Pippa and I told Mrs Lewis when Pippa's birthday was. She liked my dog. On one video call, Mrs Lewis read the class part of a story, and it was lovely to hear her voice.'
If I had time, I would read Florence's whole essay because it conveys far better than I ever could just why that personal contact with teachers really, really matters to children. But unfortunately, too few children have received high-quality contact with teachers in lockdown. Minister, I know that you are doing absolutely everything that you can to ensure that children get more time in school. When schools closed in March, it was an emergency. It's not an emergency now and it won't be in September. What more can we do to ensure that all children in Wales have high-quality personal contact with their teachers, going forward?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Lynne, and thank you for taking the opportunity to highlight the good practice at Garnteg. I have to say I have been overwhelmed by the outstanding practice that has been delivered by schools throughout this period, including the incredible flexibility that has been shown by all members of the education workforce and support staff in schools during this time. Lynne, I think you are correct—feedback from children indicates that they really, really value live interaction with staff and definitely would like more of that, going forward.
As our attention now switches to the new academic year in September, I, my officials, local education authorities and schools are working hard to maximise face-to-face contact and minimise disruption to the normal course of a child's education. We have to, quite rightly, as you say, plan appropriately for a range of scenarios that we could face in the autumn term. But setting a national expectation that children and their parents can have with regard to live interaction, should we be in the situation, as a result of the virus, that children have to spend some time at home, is a very important part of that work, because we know it is greatly valued by children and young people.

Thank you, Minister.

6. Debate on the First Supplementary Budget 2020-21

The next item is the debate on the first supplementary budget for 2020-21, and I call on the Minister for Finance to move the motion—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM7335 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 20.30, approves the First Supplementary Budget for the financial year 2020-21, laid in the Table Office on Thursday 28 May 2020.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The first supplementary budget for this financial year sets out how we have initially reshaped our budget to respond to the coronavirus pandemic. Normally, supplementary budgets are relatively small-scale, primarily technical events, covering modest adjustments to our budgets to reflect the impact of the UK Government's spend on Wales. The evolving response to the coronavirus pandemic, however, has required levels of Government investment at a pace and scale without rival in the post-war era.
This supplementary budget increases the overall Welsh resources by £2.1 billion. This is 10per cent more than set out in the final budget just four months ago. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Finance Committee for their consideration of this budget and the publication of their report. Whilst I will provide a detailed response in due course, I am minded to accept the recommendations.
I welcome the committee's recognition of the ongoing work required with the UK Government, both in respect of additional funding and the ability to maximise the use of financial flexibilities. I'm continuing to press the UK Government to provide greater fiscal flexibility to help us manage in these unprecedented times. We're calling for full access to the resources in the reserve this year, if required, and the ability to carry forward more resource and capital at the end of the financial year.
The decisions we have taken have resulted in unprecedented changes to our spending plans, and the supplementary budget confirms that over £2.4 billion is being dedicated to the Welsh Government's response to coronavirus. It comes from three main sources: funding that comes to Wales as the result of spending committed to measures in England, the Wales coronavirus reserve, which I have created by urgently reprioritising budgets across the Welsh Government, and from repurposed EU funding.
Our first priority has been to ensure that our healthcare system is able to cope with the unprecedented strain that the pandemic is placing on it, and we have provided additional funding to increase our normal capacity. Funding of £166 million has been provided to open field hospitals across Wales, a crucial part of our strategy to respond to the COVID-19 outbreak. Thirty million pounds has been allocated for the use of all six private hospitals in Wales and a further £6 million is being allocated to provide additional mental health in-patient capacity.
We have also needed to urgently increase staff resource within the NHS to cope with the extra demand. Ninety-one million pounds has been made available to maximise the service contribution that can be made by healthcare students and those returning to service. We have also allocated £100 million to provide the personal protective equipment that our health and social care staff need to carry out their work safely, both for themselves and their patients. Testing is a vital part of our plan to reduce harm from COVID-19 and to help the public and professionals get back to their daily lives. Fifty-seven million pounds has been allocated to support our test, trace, protect strategy.
It has also financed crucial action to help those who need it most, because it's clear that the crisis is having a greater impact on those who are already vulnerable—people who live in poor housing or are homeless, or who struggle on low incomes and are most likely to have seen those incomes cut even further. Our response to the coronavirus pandemic and the additional funding we have made available is not just an immediate response to the direct health harms caused by the pandemic itself, but it is designed to alleviate the wider impacts caused by the unprecedented social and economic measures we have taken as a Government to protect people's lives and reduce the spread of coronavirus.
We were the first part of the UK to extend free school meals throughout the Easter period and for summer holidays. We have committed £40 million to providing front-line social care workers with an additional £500 payment. Despite the pandemic, our local authorities are continuing to provide social care, education and other vital public services and are playing their part in working urgently to protect their essential local services within the community. At the same time, there are inevitable increased costs and lost income as a result of the necessary actions that we're having to take to protect public health.
We have made available £188.5 million through our local authority hardship fund in recognition of their wider role in the community during this crisis. And we have prioritised protecting the Welsh economy, providing the most generous business support package anywhere in the UK, with help for businesses that are not eligible for other forms of Government assistance. We have provided more than £1 billion that local government is distributing on our behalf in non-domestic rates relief and associated grants to businesses in the retail, leisure and hospitality sectors. To date, local authorities have issued over 50,700 business rates grants totalling over £625 million.
Our £500 million economic resilience fund has already provided grants to more than 6,000 SMEs and loans to 1,000 more, giving vital support for businesses, particularly those micro, small and medium-sized firms at the heart of our economy, alongside charities and social enterprises. Although the sums of money that we are talking about are large, so too is the magnitude of the challenge. Getting the right support to our public services, businesses and communities has involved balancing tough decisions every day. We have been and will continue to be guided by a sense of what is fair when public finances are facing such enormous pressure.
We have also taken urgent action to respond to the emerging and evolving disproportionate impact that this pandemic is having on some of the most disadvantaged people in Wales, with funding allocations, including an initial £15 million for a direct food delivery scheme to those shielding due to having medical conditions that make them extremely vulnerable to COVID-19, and who have no other access to necessary supplies, and a £24 million third sector COVID-19 response fund to support the Welsh voluntary sector.
This debate focuses on the decisions that we've already taken and are reflected in the first supplementary budget. There will be the opportunity on 15 July to discuss the difficult choices we will need to make for our upcoming 2021-22 budget priorities. These are linked to recovery from the pandemic, and how we may also need to respond to the risk of the UK leaving the EU without a trade deal. This is alongside the difficult choices that we will continue to make in our 2021 plans, and I will provide an update on the exercise to reprioritise capital spending at the earliest opportunity.
Over the coming months, I will of course carefully monitor and manage our financial position and intend to table a second supplementary budget later in the year. So, Llywydd, I ask Members to support this motion.

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee to speak, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. It's my pleasure to speak in this debate today on behalf of the Finance Committee. The committee met to consider this supplementary budget on 4 June. I note the positive opening remarks by the Minister in terms of the report recommendations, and we look forward to receiving the formal reply.
But as the Minister has said, this supplementary budget is being delivered during unprecedented times. This Senedd passed the final budget for 2020-21 before the UK had presented its budget, therefore we were expecting this supplementary budget to identify consequentials. But nobody anticipated such significant changes as those we've seen as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic.
This first supplementary budget increases the Welsh Government’s fiscal resources by £2.3 billion, most of which stems from consequentials associated with policy decisions taken by the UK Government to respond to COVID-19. Our report contains a number of recommendations, and I will briefly cover the main areas today.
Many of our recommendations relate to the working arrangements between the UK Government and the Welsh Government. As a committee, we believe the UK Government must engage with the Welsh Government earlier regarding significant decisions that impact on Wales, and provide more certainty on funding that will be provided. The committee also urges the Welsh Government to explore and make a case to the Treasury regarding whether the funding formula adequately reflects the impact of COVID-19 on Wales compared to other UK nations.
The committee discussed the financial levers available to the Welsh Government, and the Minister told Members that she had approached the UK Government to seek powers to transfer existing capital to revenue, and to allow more flexibility around the annual limits on the Welsh reserve and within the overall limits of capital borrowing. The committee supports the Minister in these requests.Now, the committee will take evidence from the Secretary of State in July and we look forward to tackling him on some of these issues, too.
In responding to the COVID-19 pandemic, the Welsh Government has taken action to reallocate funding, with £256 million being returned to the central reserve. This includes situations where planned funding could not be used, but also a reduction in funding for certain bodies, such as Natural Resources Wales—and we heard mention of that earlier this afternoon—and the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales. Now, whilst the committee accepts that responding to the COVID-19 pandemic has involved making difficult decisions, the committee is keen to ensure that the Welsh Government maintains an ongoing dialogue with organisations that have received reductions in their funding.
The supplementary budget makes a number of new allocations also, particularly to health and social services, local government and the economy. The committee is aware that further allocations will need to be made during the year in response to COVID-19 and so has made a number of recommendations regarding health, including around the decommissioning of field hospitals, the provision of test, trace and protect and the actual and projected additional costs for local health boards as a result of COVID-19.
Now, in looking ahead to the recovery from the pandemic, it's clear that economic support will be required and we, as a committee, are keen to understand how the Welsh Government can accelerate its work in this area and focus on supporting town centres. The committee is also interested in finding out how the Welsh Government will ensure that funding provided to aid the recovery process from COVID-19 is focused on a green recovery. For example, how the Welsh Government envisages building on the positive transport changes resulting from the pandemic. We also want to understand more about how the Counsel General’s role in the recovery process ties in with the Minister for Finance’s role.
Finally, we considered the EU transition period. Of course, it’s easy to lose sight of the impending deadline, having focused so much on COVID-19, and clearly this needs to be addressed, too. The committee is concerned that the COVID-19 pandemic severely restricts the ability of the Welsh Government’s staff and the financial resources to prepare for the end of the EU transition period, and its ability to support agriculture, businesses and citizens with these potential changes. Whilst the Minister told us that she has funds held back to provide in-year contingency, we would welcome more details on the planning scenarios considered and the funding required. With those few comments, may I thank the Senedd?

Nick Ramsay AC: I'm pleased to contribute to this afternoon's debate. The Welsh Conservatives have long been calling for an emergency supplementary budget to provide transparency and clarity in the spending of money at this difficult time. And we do, of course, recognise the challenges that the pandemic is presenting to all the Governments of the UK, and the Welsh Conservatives wish to provide constructive opposition at this time.
Since the Welsh Government's budget for 2021-21 was approved on 3 March, its budget has increased by more than 10 per cent. The publication of the Welsh Government's supplementary budget was therefore an opportunity for the Welsh Government to show a complete change of gear in how it prioritises its finances, so it's concerning to see so little reprioritisation in practice, in light of the huge increase in the funding of its budget.
Now,can I firstly welcome some of the smaller reprioritisations that have happened, and which I've discussed with the finance Minister, such as the transfer of money from the major events fund? This is a totally sensible move. It's welcome. It's quite clear, this year, at this point in time, there aren't many major events going on, so reprioritisations like that are met with support. Where reprioritisations have been made, they've largely been in the health and social services portfolio, which has repurposed a total of £114 million, which is understandable given that the COVID-19 pandemic has been a health crisis like never seen before in Wales. However, I was disappointed to see that far less repurposing has taken place in other portfolio areas, for example, the economy and transport portfolios, which have been funded to a total of £50 million and £46.6 million respectively, which, aside from programmes that the Minister mentioned that are to be welcomed, such as the economic resilience fund, doesn't show the scale of reprioritisation that the health budget has seen.
The Minister will be aware of the very challenging settlement currently faced by local government despite Barnett consequentials from the UK Government. And I appreciate that the Welsh Government has allocated money to support local government, but councils across Wales are still having to make difficult decisions. This leaves local councils with more questions than answers, and still having to make difficult decisions. Whilst some allocations have been made, the impact of COVID-19 has been overwhelming on local communities. This needs to be recognised and further supported, particularly as the lockdown is eased.
The supplementary budget this time around is, as the Minister rightly said, not quite the technical budget that we're used to seeing in the past. It is, in many ways, an emergency budget and one that we wanted to see. But it was an opportunity to send a message to the people of Wales that the Welsh Government is forensically reprioritising funds at every level to offset the impact of COVID-19 on our communities. But in the cold light of day, how much genuine reprioritisation has taken place? The Minister told the Finance Committee, and I quote, 'I met with every Minister and Deputy Minister to interrogate their budgets'. Well, I think that's great as far as it goes, and I listened to what the Chair of the Finance Committee had to say before, but I think further interrogation is needed, particularly if we're looking at a second supplementary budget in the not-too-distant future.
So, some questions. How is the Minister assessing that every possible penny is being spent to offset the impact of COVID-19 in Wales and paving the way for our COVID-19 recovery? Is the Minister seriously confident that she can account for each Government departmental spend, and that every possible stone has been unturned in reprioritising funds? And can the Minister give a categorical commitment to the people of Wales today that funding programmes not immediately in the country's public health and economic interest have been diverted to ensure that front-line services are fully supported?
Wales is now at a crossroads. As policy starts to diverge between us and England, there will no doubt be a gap in the levels of consequentials received, and the Welsh Government's financial modelling and forecasting is absolutely crucial moving forward. Should policies continue to diverge, the Welsh Government will have to plug the gaps in funding lost from the UK Government—a political choice with a financial cost, you might say. What urgent discussions are you having, Minister, with your colleagues about how the divergence of policies will impact departmental budgets and, more importantly, what discussions have you started having about perhaps plugging some of those gaps?

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: As others have said, I will repeat that I understand that this supplementary budget is being published in unprecedented times. There is over £2 billion of additional funding that has come to Wales—consequential funds, of course—as a result of the response to the COVID-19 crisis at a UK level. An additional sum of that kind would usually offer all sorts of opportunities for expenditure, but the truth of the matter is that that funding has been used for a very specific purpose—the direct and acute response to the pandemic, and more will be needed in the coming months.
In terms of the funding provided, I note that it's only consequentials from the main projections that have been included and that other expenditure in England outside those main projectionshas been omitted. I see that the fiscal research team at the Wales Governance Centre estimates that as much as £400 million in addition could come, so we look forward to a further supplementary budget to see that funding allocated.
There are some very important questions arising here in terms of how these consequentials were reached for Wales. There are questions, as we've heard from the Chair of the Finance Committee, on the nature of the debate between the Welsh and UK Governments on the level of support required for Wales, with an older population and a population that is generally speaking poorer, and considering the groups that have been most vulnerable to the pandemic, we must ask what measure there has been of the real needs of Wales in this circumstance.
But I do accept, as I said, that most of the funding has had to be prioritised for necessary reactive measures, but even at this time my appeal is this: we do need to see signs of Welsh Government spending money in a proactive way, as we look forward to the COVID recovery. There will be work in responding to problems arising in terms of public health, mental health issues, because of well-being factors, and the challenges that have arisen with regard to that, and of course the huge work of rebuilding the Welsh economy by providing new job opportunities to those who have been hit hardest economically. We need tailored packages—very carefully tailored packages—to our need. I also agree with the point made by Llyr Gruffydd that we will need to ensure that there is appropriate investment in ensuring that the recovery is a green recovery, which has been a theme that I have been pleased to see highlighted over the past few months.
I want to move on to refer to the need to look anew at some of the fundamental elements of the fiscal relationship between Wales and the UK, and the argument, which is now stronger than ever, that there should be far more flexibility in those rules now. I know that the Minister agrees with me on much of this. There is pressure in terms of budget across all Government departments at the moment, but there are unallocated reserves too, and I agree with the need to enable the Welsh Government to have greater access to those funds. One of the things that we need to see increased expenditure on in the coming months is the work of tracing by local government. Councils have performed miracles to date in drawing in staff from across their workforce to do that tracing work, but that can't continue forever. When staff have to return to their usual roles, councils will need significant additional funds to support professional staff to do that tracing work. We need to relax the borrowing rules also. We would want to see the Welsh Government taking advantage of far broader borrowing powers. It's a very good time to borrow, to invest in all aspects of national infrastructure in Wales. We need that boost, or we needed that boost before this period—it's more crucial now than ever in order to invest in our future. And I think that we need to relax rules on allowing the use of capital for revenue spending. There are many elements to this.
So, to conclude, I started by saying that these are unprecedented times and that what we need at such times is innovation and a willingness to change. I know that the Government agrees with me on much of that. We will be abstaining on the supplementary budget, on the vote itself, but we will certainly be supporting the Government in its work to pursue the kind of changes to the fiscal rules that the Minister supports, and we will be encouraging the Government to be courageous and to go further and to seek new opportunities to reset that relationship between the Welsh Government and the UK Government.

Mark Reckless AC: We will, in the Brexit group, also be abstaining on the supplementary budget and not voting against. Generally, as the Minister said, it's small-scale, technical and modest changes, and it's anything but this time. I mean, just the numbers: £2.1 billion—10 per cent of the budget added in the space of just a few months is absolutely extraordinary.

Mark Reckless AC: I just want to reflect on, I think, an important difference between how our budgeting is done in Wales and how it's done at the UK level, particularly in a crisis like this. It strikes me that the UK Government has looked and taken its decisions on what spending it considers necessary—sometimes UK-wide, perhaps more often for England. And then, having made that decision, it then borrows or ensures whatever money is needed is printed. But what that does is it's that the assessment of necessary spending that drives the decision of how much is spent. Whereas, in Wales, I think there has been a degree of reprioritisation, and I do support much of that that has taken place. But much of what we've done has been a reaction to consequentials, so rather than deciding what money we need to spend, and then how to fund it, we wait to see how much money the UK Government decides is needed to be spent in England, we then get a consequential, and we then look to spend that. So, it's the reverse of how the process is done. And I just wonder: is there a danger in that process, particularly when we are allocating so much consequential spending so quickly, relative to what we're used to, that we don't have the same degree of control and focus on value for money as we would. I think it may be that that's understandable in the circumstances, but it may also be that there's something about our process and our scrutiny that isn't as well set up for spending changes of this size than it would be for the usual. And I think on the Finance Committee we have appreciated the pragmatic approach that the Minister has taken and her willingness to engage. And like her, I welcome that debate we're going to be having on 15 July, looking forward in terms of what the spending priorities will be, and I hope talking not just about the things we would like to see, but also about the inevitable trade-offs that are involved in that.
I think it's easy for us as individual AMs to come to the Minister and represent particular constituents or particular sectors who come to us and say, 'Well, so and so's got help, but they haven't got as much in this area—shouldn't more be done?' And the culmination of those approaches is in a direction of greatly more spending. And I was really quite reassured by some of what Mark Drakeford said earlier in response to Suzy Davies. The particular example was caravan parks, but it could have been all manner of different areas. And frankly, if the Welsh Government is using VAT registration as a way to ensure at least a degree of financial and audit control over spending, then that's something that I would welcome. It is a challenge to find rough-and-ready but nonetheless useful, from an audit perspective, measures. And it may be that we accept that quite a lot of money is going to be, at least in some sense—when it's still all there, even there, it's supporting people who need that support, even if they're not able to use it to successfully keep their business going, ultimately. But I suspect that, after this, we will look back and find quite significant and large-scale examples, not only of that type of spending, but also of spending that is at least, arguably, fraudulent. And I do think we need to look to Welsh Government still to have some degree of checks and some degree of assurance, and make the best decisions it can in a fast-moving situation about how to do that.
Can I ask on the health side—I don't think anyone would criticise the Ministers or the health boards for the spending we saw on the so-called Nightingale hospitals—the largest at the Principality Stadium in Cardiff—and how, in effect, they haven't been significantly used. But looking back at that, are there lessons that can be usefully learned still to apply at this point in the crisis, rather than something for an inquiry down the road? The Minister mentioned I think £57 million for test, trace and protect. There are elements of that that I think have been quite good in Wales—I think the use of the public sector staff, relative to hiring any short-term people, perhaps without the same degree of training, from the private sector, as has happened in England, with the UK Government. It may be that that is working more effectively, although I'd like to study that further. On the other hand, earlier in the process, the amount of money spent on testing, and the focus on Public Health Wales doing that testing—I would question really whether that did get good value for money. We saw a lot less testing thanEngland, and I think we also spent a lot more money, to no great effect, or not the effect we would have liked in terms of testing, because we were trying to produce that all in-house, within the public sector, in Public Health Wales, rather than going to the private and university sectors earlier in the day.
Finally, I'd just like to observe that there are some changes in terms of the Welsh rates of income tax and land transaction tax, but I just question whether those are sufficient, given the scale of the lockdown and its continuance in Wales, and in particular on the land transaction tax side. I mentioned in First Minister's questions that while some people said the housing market was reopening in Wales six weeks after England, in terms of viewings at least, it's still only for unoccupied properties. Has the Minister considered even now what further declines we may see in land transaction tax and in the Welsh rates of income tax because of what we're doing? And ultimately, as Nick Ramsay said at the end of his speech, how are we then going to pay for it? The Conservative Government in Westminster has devolved the power, not just to cut income tax by 10 per cent, but toraise it without any limit at all, and I just worry that we're not joining up the implications of our decisions in terms of what the financial consequences are going to be down the road. Thank you.

John Griffiths AC: I would like to contribute as Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee. And like other committees, we are currently undertaking an inquiry in terms of the impact of COVID-19 on our areas of responsibility. And it is clear that responding is placing significant financial pressures on those organisations operating in the areas within our remit, and the ability of those organisations to respond in the most effective way to the ongoing challenges.
Of course, local authorities are in the front line in responding to this emergency and it has come at a time when those critical services they provide are already under significant financial pressure and budgetary constraints. I note that this supplementary budget has made £180 million hardship fund available to local authorities, including £78 million to cover loss of income due to this emergency. And those local authorities have had early access to their May and June settlement payments to help with their response, and those initial actions are very welcome. However, it will be crucial to ensure that our councils continue to have access to such support over the coming months, and indeed years, in order to sustain existing services and resume those that are currently on hold. Indeed, as the Minister for Housing and Local Government emphasised to us in committee, it's the long-term financial impact that's concerning, so it will be crucial that future financial settlements are fair and recognise this impact.
Moving on to other matters, the rising instances of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence during the course of COVID-19 is of significant concern to our committee. The evidence from Welsh Women's Aid highlighted the importance of funding for support services reaching the front line. I note that the supplementary budget includes £200,000 capital funding for the grant for refuge providers, and that is to be welcomed, but I would like to emphasisethe importance of moneys reaching front-line support services. It's crucial that sufficient funding gets to that front line to enable providers to use it in the best way to change and support service delivery. Yes, capital funding is important, but it doesn't help address issues of lost income or cost of using agency staff to cover for substantive staff absence.
Welsh Women's Aid told us that the results of a survey conducted shows that 90 per cent of services are facing increased costs as a direct result of the pandemic, including PPE costs and staff shortages. So, it is vital that there is financial support available for these, as well as capital funding. Welsh Women's Aid has called for a ring-fenced pot of money for specialist services at least equivalent to funding being invested elsewhere in the UK. It would like to see a clear plan to replace the funding that has been repurposed to meet the impact of COVID-19 and funding that can be flexibly utilised for revenue and support costs. We support these calls, and I would ask the Minister to consider making such funding available as a matter of priority. Diolch yn fawr.

Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I was trying to find out where the unmute button was on the screen there. Can I say, before I start to address the first supplementary budget, I would like to make two very brief points, but I think they really are important? Firstly, I believe setting an initial budget and a supplementary budget are the most important things that the Senedd collectively does. Without these decisions, the Government would not have a penny to spend. Yet the time allocated for the supplementary budget is the same as an opposition debate, and the speaking time will be the same. As we see the Senedd as a maturing Parliament, surely the budget process is worthy of an afternoon's debate and 10 minutes' minimum time for speeches.
The second quick point is: the consequential funding is provided from an increase in expenditure in England in areas devolved to Wales. While the Plenary session may not be the correct place to report on this in detail, I believe that a report on all consequential increases in funding, including the calculations on which they are based, should be provided in writing to the Finance Committee.
I believe—and I've written this before—that, too often, the Treasury treat us as just another spending department at Westminster, rather than as a devolved Government, which leads me on to the first three recommendations of the Finance Committee, which recommend that
'the Welsh Government continues to monitor and explore whether consequentials received through the Barnett formula are reflective of the needs of Wales'.
'Should consequentials not adequately reflect the needs of Wales in light of COVID-19 the Committee recommends that the Welsh Government confirm with UK Government alternative funding options as a matter of urgency.'
And I know Llyr Grufydd went into some detail on that earlier, so I'm not going to repeat it. And the committee recommends that:
'the Welsh Government insists that the UK Government provides as much information...as possible, on any UK Government announcement that affects Wales, its residents and/or the businesses that operate here.'
I'm not going to continue a debate that I've had with the Minister, over some time, over whether we've got sufficient money from the finance changes that were made in paying off the debts of the health boards in England and the Government in Westminster taking some financial interest in the companies concerned, when they were actually all public companies to start with. I'm not going to debate that today; I just want to put that on the record.
Can I turn now to the main part of the first supplementary budget? As the Minister said, this is very different to the minor changes of previous years, which we're used to. Normally, supplementary budgets are technical events, regularised allocations, move some money around, give additional money to people who've succeeded with their special pleading, but it's just small sums moving around. This is much different to that. It's almost 15 per cent of the total budget—14 per cent of the total budget, something like that. It's a big change.
And the pandemic has—. Unprecedented levels of Government investment have followed. Lots of money has been spent. And, like John Griffiths, I'm concerned that—will local government be fully recompensed for the money it has spent in order to get us out of this mess? And can I just say, again for the record, I think local government has been superb? Ignoring political control of the different councils, the councils have really stepped up to the mark. And there's a couple of national organisations that, if they'd done equally as well, we'd be in a much better position.
On the detail of the budget, I have serious concerns about the reductions to both the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and NRW, as both cover areas that face significant challenges in the short and medium term. While the work streams that would have been covered have disappeared, therefore they don't need the money for that, HEFCW needs the money, because higher education is really important to the economy. We talk about the foundational economy; the foundation of the economy in a number of places—Aberystwyth, Lampeter, Swansea, amongst others—is the university. You take the university out and you've taken out the foundation of that economy. And with NRW—. I think NRW was a mistake—putting it all together—but it does have financial problems, and we need to ensure that it is ideally funded. We, as a Finance Committee, felt it wasn't funded as well as it could have been initially. We, as climate change committee, didn't think it was being funded as well as it could be, and now they've taken more money off it. And I have serious concerns about that.
On the money given out,I'll just say again, for the record, giving out rate relief to shops that have been open—some of which have been selling food and drink and been having Christmas every week—I think was a fundamental mistake. And I know the Minister has said it would be more complicated. I think a simple questionnaire: 'Do you sell food and drink? Are you open?'—if the answer is 'yes' to both of those, then they shouldn't have got rate relief, because I think that has given money to people who didn't need it, and all it's done is feed their bottom line.
It's not easy to predict what’s going to happen in the future. I think more work is going to carry on from home—how much, I don't know. And I think that—. How many people will carry on with online shopping—people have got used to it now—and what effect would that have on city centres? I think we need to perhaps spend some time thinking about the future, but realising we won't know until things happen.
Just finally, global warming has not gone away, so we need more sustainable ways of working.
And finally, if I can say, I would really appreciate it if Plaid Cymru and the Conservatives would bring alternative budgets, and bring alternative supplementary budgets, saying what they'd spend more on and what they'd spend less on, then we can have a debate, rather than saying, 'Well, we'll abstain or we'll vote against it, but we're not quite sure what we don't like.' Please, produce your own budgets or your own changes. I often do, and I haven't got the benefit of a whole party behind me. Thank you.

Alun Davies AC: I think we all recognise the hard work that's been undertaken by the Finance Minister and her colleagues at this most impossible time. I think we'd all agree that the Welsh Government has responded with speed and agility to the crisis as it has emerged over the past few months, and the funding has been delivered directly to the front line. I think we all recognise that in the allocations that we are debating this afternoon. I think we should also recognise that, in the main part at least, the UK Government has also been able to deliver additional support to maintain jobs and employment. And all of this, I think, is to be welcomed.
There are two points, Presiding Officer, that I would like to make in this afternoon's debate: firstly, on the structures of funding available to the Welsh Government, and, secondly, the priority given in this financial year by the Welsh Government to the growing demands on that funding.
Much of the Finance Committee's report, and many of these recommendations, as has already been described by Members in this debate, describe the funding policies, structures and arrangements that exist between the Welsh and the United Kingdom Governments. It was good to hear in her opening remarks the Minister saying that she's accepting the recommendations that the committee has made on these matters.
It is clear to me that this emergency has tested these inadequate arrangements to breaking point. It has long been a fundamental truth that the structures by which funding is distributed throughout the United Kingdom do not work fairly for everyone. The financial framework that was agreed with the UK Government earlier in this Senedd will not provide a firm basis on which to provide for fairness across the different countries of the UK, and neither does it provide the flexibility that the Welsh Government requires to respond to the challenge that is facing us, and I think the Welsh Government has accepted this already.
So, in short, we do need a new settlement, a settlement based on needs and equality. We need UK structures and UK funding policies that are agreed between our different Governments and that are delivered independently of the UK Government. In these matters, the UK Government is a player; it cannot act as a referee as well. So, having accepted these recommendations, I'd be grateful if the Minister could outline how she intends to take these matters forward over the coming year.
My second point, Presiding Officer, is the relative priorities of the Welsh Government in providing funding allocations. We all recognise the immediate importance of ensuring that the NHS and front-line services are fully funded to respond to the coronavirus crisis. But, as we move forward over the rest of this financial year, we will also need to see significantly more investment in economic support. I want to see the Welsh Government having a clear and razor-sharp focus on jobs. In constituencies such as mine in Blaenau Gwent, we've already been identified as being at serious risk of losing employment as we see the full impact of the coronavirus on our economy. To address this, the Welsh Government's response must also be to ensure that funds are allocated to deliver core services, but also to invest in protecting the jobs of the 7,000 people who are currently furloughed in Blaenau Gwent. We know there are 300,000 people furloughed across Wales. We need to protect these jobs into the future. In my own constituency, Minister, I especially want to see movement on the Tech Valleys programme. This was launched by myself and the economy Minister nearly three years ago. It is clear that progress has not been anything like as rapid as it should have been, and I think, to be honest, the Government recognises that. We need to see that progress now if we are to withstand the additional pressures caused by the coronavirus crisis.
I recognise what's been said by other Members in this debate and I recognise that all of us will have our own list of priorities, but, for me, it must be the case that the structures within which we operate and the allocation of funds to protect jobs must be the key priorities for this Government for the rest of this financial year. Thank you.

I call now on the Minister to respond to the debate—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you to all colleagues for their contributions in the debate this afternoon. The first supplementary budget is an important part of the budget process, allowing the changes that have been made to be reported to and scrutinised by the Senedd.
As I outlined in my opening statement and as colleagues have all, I think, recognised, this is nothing like the more kind of routine supplementary budgets that are relatively small scale that we've seen in recent times. To support the Welsh economy and ensure our public services are equipped to deal with the coronavirus pandemic, we have acted swiftly in this first supplementary budget to allocate this funding, together with repurposing our existing budgets and realigning European funding, and I will say to colleagues that what you'll see in the supplementary budget in terms of reallocation of funding is very much that funding that was identified within Ministers' budgets and returned to the COVID reserve. Alongside that, though, you'll see Ministers taking decisions within their remaining budgets that are very much also in response to the COVID crisis, both in terms of the immediate, acute response, but then also with that eye on the recovery.
So, looking ahead to when we get through the pandemic, we know that we're facing a period of recession, which does pose some severe risks to our public finances. As you know, I'm working with the Counsel General, who's been charged with overseeing the co-ordination of the work in Welsh Government to respond to the COVID-19 crisis, and we're drawing expertise and experience from outside of Government to ensure that the preparations for the future recovery are creative and comprehensive.
The choices and the opportunities that we will have moving out of lockdown and through to the recovery will very much depend on the financial choices that we're making now and our capacity and our ability to get more money to the front line, which is currently constrained by the rigid financial rules imposed on the Welsh Government by the UK Government, and that really does lead me to some of the contributions that have been made in the debate.
With regard to the Barnett formula, clearly it's not based on need, although there is a needs element of it, which does give the additional 5 per cent to the Welsh Government. But, in my first meeting with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury right at the start of the crisis, I did impress upon him the fact that there should be a needs-based element of funding over and above, in respect of the particular challenges that we do face in Wales. I gave the example of our older population, for example, and our larger reliance on the manufacturing sector. On top of that, of course, we've got a larger tourism sector here in Wales and a greater proportion of small businesses. So, all of these various factors do have an implication there.
Before the crisis began, you will have heard me talking about the work that we're doing to try and secure that and progress that review of the statement of funding policy, and that relates to some of the inter-governmental relations that have been mentioned in the debate today. I think it's really important that we do have that independent appeals or arbitrator where those disagreements between the devolved nations and the UK Government can be discussed, and examples that I would have liked to have taken to an independent arbitrator, for example, would have been the impact of the UK Government's decision on teachers' pensions, which had a knock-on effect on the Welsh Government's budget, and, of course, the additional funding for Northern Ireland, which we don't begrudge at all, but we would have wanted to see our fair share of that funding as well. So, those are some examples of things that I think an independent appeals process would helpfully resolve.
The committee has helpfully recommended that there should be better information sharing from the UK Government, and I absolutely agree with that and endorse that recommendation because it is very difficult to plan a budget, especially in a year like this, when you don't have a full sight as to what consequential funding might be coming your way during that year, so there's a risk, isn't there, that you potentially lose opportunities, because you're not convinced that you'll be able to afford them, or you go ahead at risk and do some things that you believe are vitally important, but in doing so, you're not confident that you will have the funding for that.
Mention was made of the fact that we've only included the £1.8 billion from the UK Government, which was in the main estimates, and the reason for that is again about confidence, because you would have remembered that at the very end of the last financial year, we had that situation where the UK Government applied a negative Barnett consequential, which meant that there was a reduction of £100 million of capital and a £100 million of financial transactions capital. So, as I think Julie James was referring to her in questions this afternoon, we have to be absolutely confident that that funding is coming to us, and that's why you only see what was reflected in the main estimates in the supplementary budget.
And then just to comment very briefly, Llywydd, on the importance of assurance in decision making, because we are working in a situation where decisions have to be made at pace, but at the same time we have to maintain those essential safeguards of looking after public money properly. The current crisis does mean that we need to increase selectively our appetite for risk, and whilst we aim to be as flexible and swift and responsive as we can, we must still be mindful of our responsibilities to protect the public purse. The funding allocations from the COVID reserve have all been considered in the context of risk appetite, key risks and mitigation actions, and they're approved when I'm assured that the risks have been reasonably considered and, where necessary, some appropriate arrangements have been put in place to manage those risks.
I did want to very briefly refer to tax. Welsh rates of income tax were referred to during the debate and, of course, the 2020-21 revenues from the Welsh rates of income tax and the associated block grant adjustments are fixed for budgetary purposes, and that does mean that any reconciliation payment that might be required once the outturn information is available in the summer of 2022 will need to be applied to the Welsh Government budget for 2023-24. So, this will be an ongoing area of interest, I think, for finance Ministers for the years to come. And in terms of those fully devolved taxes, the land transaction tax and landfill disposals tax, they will also be affected by the COVID crisis. Reductions, though, in 2021 are expected to be mitigated largely by reductions to the block grant adjustments, which will be revised using the OBR's forecast, published alongside the UK Government's autumn budget this year, because the way the system works does mean, of course, that we are protected to some extent by those UK-wide shocks to the economy.
So, just to conclude, Llywydd, the supplementary budget does put in place a firm foundation to support the range of interventions to respond to and mitigate the impact of the crisis, and lots of those contributions this afternoon very much had the eye on the recovery, so this obviously is by no means the end of the story and we'll need to continue to closely monitor and assess how the situation in Wales develops. And as I said, I'll be bringing a second supplementary budget before the Senedd later in the year, and I very much look forward to that debate on 15 July where we'll able to explore priorities and ideas for the recovery and for moving forward. And so, to close, Llywydd, I move the motion.

The proposal, then, is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I see an objection and therefore I'll defer voting until the time of voting.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Debate on the Legislative Consent Motion on the Finance Bill

The next item is the debate on the legislative consent motion on the Finance Bill. I call on the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to move the motion. Lesley Griffiths.

Motion NDM7336 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Finance Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion and I'm pleased to be able to bring forward this legislative consent motion for the UK Government's Finance Bill. I would like to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Finance Committee for their scrutiny of the memorandum.
The LJCC concluded I should seek consent of the Senedd, given the provisions relate to a purpose that it is within its legislative competence. The Finance Committee was content, and did not wish to raise any reporting issues. Clause 93 of the Finance Bill relates to the charging for and allocating allowances under an emissions reduction trading scheme. I believe the provisions contained within clause 93 fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, in so far as they relate to environmental protection and climate change. However, I am of the opinion these provisions should be made in a UK Bill, as this will ensure we meet the timetable required to implement the UK emissions trading scheme across the UK on 1 January 2021.
Charging for allowances through an auctioning system will enable the UK emissions trading scheme—a hugely important decarbonisation policy—to set a carbon price for our highest emitters when we leave the EU emissions trading scheme. The UK emissions trading scheme will incentivise Wales's largest carbon emitters to decarbonise their operations whilst ensuring a level playing field across the UK. Achieving a transition to Wales's industrial base will be crucial if we are to achieve our climate ambitions in a socially just way. I therefore commend the motion to the Chamber.

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mick Antoniw. Mick Antoniw, your microphone isn't unmuted. Try again.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd.

There you go.

Mick Antoniw AC: We considered the legislative consent memorandum for the Finance Bill at our meeting on 8 June 2020. We laid a short report before the Senedd on 18 June, and my contribution to this debate this afternoon will therefore be brief.
As the Minister said, the highest emitters of greenhouse gasses in Wales currently participate in the European Union emissions trading scheme. A replacement policy will be required within the UK at the end of the transition period in order to avoid a gap. The legislative consent memorandum notes that given there is a UK-wide intention for a UK-wide framework,
'with common rules for participants across the UK'—
the Welsh Government believes—
'it is appropriate for a UK Bill to make these provisions'—
for Wales, and our report notes this fact.
At this point, I'd like to provide some broader context to this afternoon's debate. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee monitors the UK Government's reports on the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and common frameworks, which are produced for the UK Parliament on a three monthly cycle. Members will be aware that the reports provide an update on the use of so-called freezing powers under the EU withdrawal Act, but the reports also note progress that has been made in the development of common frameworks. The seventh report covering the period December 2019 to March 2020 notes that the emissions trading systems framework has gone through the inter-governmental workshops and stakeholder engagement, and has completed phase 2 of the four-phase process. I'm aware that the UK and devolved Government have now also issued proposals on the new UK-wide emissions trading scheme.
Now, moving on, referring to clause 93—as the Minister also did—of the Bill, allows the UK Government to make regulations, which provide for the allocation of emissions allowances in return for payment, under any future UK emissions trading scheme. Whilst the Welsh Government is of the view that this clause requires the Senedd consent, the UK Government does not agree. As a committee, we agree with the view of the Welsh Government. In our view, the relevant provisions of clause 93 relate to a purpose that is within the legislative competence of the Senedd in accordance with section 108A of the Government of Wales Act 2006, and therefore consent of the Senedd is correctly being sought. Thank you.

We have no other speakers, and therefore I ask the Minister to respond if she wishes to.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and I thank Mick Antoniw for his contribution. As I said, it's a hugely important policy if we are going to achieve a decarbonised, successful industry base in the future. And I think also as we look to recovery from COVID-19, it's really important that we provide clarity for our businesses. So, diolch.

The proposal then is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, I see no objection, and therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Motion to amend Standing Order 34

The next motion is to amend Standing Order 34, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion.

Motion NDM7338 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 33.2:
1. Considers the report of the Business Committee, ‘Remote Voting’ laid in the Table Office on 17 June 2020.
2. Approves the proposals to amend Standing Order 34, as set out in Annex A of the report of the Business Committee.
3. Notes that these changes are temporary, and will cease to have effect on the dissolution of this Senedd or when the Senedd so resolves, whichever is sooner.

Motion moved.

Darren Millar AC: I move.

It's moved. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, it's objected, then I'll defer the voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Debate on the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee report -  Impact of the COVID-19 outbreak on the arts sector

The next item, therefore, is a debate on the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee report on the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the arts sector. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Helen Mary Jones.

Motion NDM7337 Helen Mary Jones
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee on the impact of the COVID-19 outbreak on the arts sector laid in the Table Office on 5 June 2020.

Motion moved.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. May I begin my contribution to this debate this afternoon by thanking the staff of our committee, the witnesses who contributed to this short inquiry, and my fellow committee members? I think they would all wish me to say that the staff have been exemplary through this very difficult period. I think, when the history of this time comes to be written, the excellent, sterling work of the staff of the Senedd in keeping our democracy going in these very difficult times will deserve at least a chapter of its own.
The Government of course has some time before it's required to respond to our report, and we're grateful already to the Deputy Minister for the way that he has engaged with the committee and the information that he's provided. But, we wanted to table this motion for debate today because of the urgent nature of the crisis being faced by the arts sector.
We know, for example, that the Wales Millennium Centre has already announced that it will remain closed until January, placing 250 jobs potentially at risk. And while the support already provided by the arts council has been welcome, and some venues have been able to take advantage of other sources of support such as the job retention scheme, it is clear that it will be some time until all venues can open, and when they can do so it may be hard for them to do so profitably because of social distancing.
We're clear that the arts and the cultural sector will need longer term public support, and this is why we have recommended that the Welsh Government recognises that our major arts organisations may not be financially viable for many years to come and that the Government should be prepared to extend the necessary public funding to ensure their survival.
It is also why we have recommended that Welsh Government urges the Treasury to review the self-employment income scheme so that freelance workers, who are of course the absolute backbone of the arts sector, do not fall through any gaps in eligibility, and that the Welsh Government lobbies Westminster to continue the job retention scheme and the self-employment income support scheme beyond October for some sectors in which people will not be able to safely return to work. Our arts sector cannot afford to lose the creative innovative people who make it what it is.
Venues may not be able to open for some time, but they need to be planning now for when they can do so. And this is why we have recommended that Welsh Government provide guidance on reopening by 1 August, to give time for venues to make any adjustments to premises and to working practices in a timely manner. We've also recommended that Welsh Government establishes an entertainment and events working group to enhance Government co-operation and collaboration with the sector.
And finally, Llywydd, in the field of the arts, as across society, this crisis is an opportunity for us as a nation to rethink and reset. We have seen the social value of the arts throughout this crisis, from innovative online performances from elite companies and individuals—albeit performances that don't raise any revenue, of course, because most of these can't be charged for—to the hospital choirs lifting the spirits of the front-line workers, to children's rainbows adorning our neighbours' windows.Now is the time for us to reaffirm our commitment to the arts, not only for their importance to the economy, though that matters enormously of course, but also for their value in enabling us to explore who we are as individuals and communities and as a nation, and to explore what matters to us.
And it is also a time for us to reflect on the need for the arts to truly reflect our nation in its full diversity. The Black Lives Matter campaign has led us all to reflect on the under-representation of black and minority ethnic people in our cultural life, and this must be addressed. Now is the time for us to think, to look ahead, and to plan, and that is why we have recommended that the Deputy Minister should work with the sector to set a long-term policy direction that is sustainable, inclusive, and accessible.
We will need a vibrant, diverse and inclusive arts sector as we recover as individuals and communities and as a nation from this unprecedented shock, and that sector can only be sustained and secured at this time with long-term, practical public sector support.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm very grateful, Dirprwy Lywydd, for the fact that we have been able to table this report today. We very much look forward to Members' contributions, and I look forward to responding later to the debate. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. David Melding.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I thank Helen Mary Jones for all her work as the temporary Chair and send my good wishes to Bethan? I don't think it's a reflection on Helen's work at the moment that we'll applaud Bethan's return also, but, in the meantime, the leadership Helen has given to the committee has been instrumental in us continuing our work and producing such an important report this afternoon.
But I do also want to add my thanks to the whole committee team, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think we've all as Members of the Senedd been hugely impressed by the way the Commission staff have worked to ensure that as much of what we do could continues as a legislature, both here in Plenary but also our committee work, and I'm very, very grateful to them in enabling our work to continue.
I think this is such an important area for us to look at. Helen Mary has outlined, in essence, our recommendations, and I completely agree with them. I think it's very important that we push them forward and we see action from the Welsh Government, but also from the UK Government, when we're looking at job retention schemes and how we're going to sustain the whole structure of the arts sector in Wales but also throughout the United Kingdom.
One of the pieces of evidence that I found most insightful is that many of the organisations currently under most pressure as their business model is undermined are those that, over the last 10 years or so, have diversified, increased their commercial income, have increased merchandising, and have been hugely successful and allowed more space for public funds to be devoted to other areas of the artistic community that are really important but don't generate so much income. Helen Mary referred to some of those in terms of the work in public services like hospitals. I think that really is such an important message for us to take forward that we must have a partnership that allows the muscle memory of our great artistic enterprises to be retained, and those who have done so much not to rely on public funds now are turning to us.
As we've heard, there is no prospect of audiences coming back in the size needed to keep the millennium centre going, but also many other theatre venues. Twenty-five per cent, 30 per cent, perhaps, of audience capacity may be delivered with social distance, but it's going to be nowhere near the level that we need in terms of ticket sales of three quarters or more to really ensure that productions can break even and generate funds in terms of providing profits for future investment. So, this is a very, very important time for us.
And also, there's the whole spin-off of those many people who are self-employed but provide services to the artistic community—those who are involved in theatre productions, but also, looking at other aspects of the creative industry, in television and film and other areas. So, we should remember there are many small providers out there who currently find it very difficult to access schemes and are perhaps the most vulnerable—amongst the most vulnerable, anyway—in society in terms of job security.
And again, I think, in terms of telling the nation's story and reimagining the past and what it means to us, how we learn lessons from it, and how we explore the more uncomfortable areas, but also celebrate the great inheritances we have, as well, so that we enjoy life in the future, you know, I think COVID has reminded us of the basic things that are important in terms of the value of life, and the arts are so central to that. And it, I think, would be quite shocking if we do not make that investment now so that when we are through those terrible and testing episode in a year or so, when there is a long-term solution, or at least a means to live with this disease without the lethal effects of it, then we will want this sector to flourish again. If we don't have that, we will be much diminished. And let's remember that Wales has had an absolute boom in the creative industries. It's truly one of our wonderful growth areas, and we will want it to be core to our economic future again and also the way we enjoy life. So, I commend this report with great enthusiasm, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I look forward to the Welsh Government's response. I'm sure that we can see the arts thrive again, as they have in the past, if we make this critical investment now.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Members of the Senedd will know that I'm also determined to advocate for the arts sector in and across Wales, and have long championed in this place and outside of it that the Welsh Government deploy activist measures to stabilise the health of the arts sector, following a decade of UK Government austerity measures. That was the landscape we were in. Since the COVID-19 outbreak has ravaged humanity, we are in a different place again. So, as such, I fully welcome the important and timely piece of work from the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. Its report into the impact of the COVID-19 outbreak on the arts sector in Wales presents us now here in Wales with some very key issues, underscored by others, including UK Music. It is right that when nations are exposed to a national pandemic and crisis of this scale, the very first duty of Government is to protect its citizens, and I applaud the Welsh Government actions. But it is no hyperbole when I state to you for the record that the arts sector is now in the gravest and most stark danger it has faced to date, and I will take an unusual action as the Labour and Co-operative Member for Islwyn, to quote from a recent leading article from The Times in London, briefly. It stated on 15 June:
'In times of danger and of celebration, live orchestral music provides solace and instils hope. Yet the global pandemic threatens terminal damage to Britain's orchestras. In a letter to The Timestoday, some of the world's most eminent conductors warn that without a substantial injection of money, Britain's musical organisations may be forced to close amid a precipitous collapse in the economy. Demands on the public finances are pressing, yet emergency aid in this case is not only justified, but as has been stated, is vital for the nation's soul.'
So, there can surely be nobody here in this Senedd who does not wholeheartedly agree with this Welsh Senedd report's first recommendations, namely that the Welsh Government should lobby the UK Government to urge that the self-employed income support scheme continues beyond May 2020, and the job retention scheme continues beyond October 2020, and, too, the self-employed income support scheme is revised to ensure no freelance workers fall through the gaps in eligibility for that scheme.
In 2008, the UK Labour Government bailed out the banks with a massive capital injection. In 2020, the arts sector in Wales and the UK requires a large-scale capital injection of principally UK Government money, followed by Welsh Government's strong support and a clear strategic direction. And I will say that this is not just the opinion of me, a socialist arts/music lover from Islwyn. It is also a qualified opinion of leading conductors and cultural thinkers, international musicians like NicolaBenedetti and Sir KarlJenkins and Sheku Kanneh-Mason, who all supported my commissioned report, 'Land of Song'.
The Times, in concluding, states:
'The economics will need careful planning, but organisations must be given a breathing space in trying to make this work. If they close, the cultural loss will be irreplaceable, and future generations will not likely forgive those who allowed it.'
Deputy Llywydd, Wales, a land of song famed for its culture, its heritage and its music, faces a cultural reckoning like never before. Future generations of Wales will look to us individually here and collectively in this Welsh Parliament, in this Senedd, at this moment in history, and ask, rightly, 'What did they do to safeguard our nation's precious cultural heritage?' Thank you.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I believe that we need to reassess the support that the Welsh Government can provide to the arts sector in Wales. I accept what some speakers have said on extending the furlough and extending the support for the self-employed, but I also believe that there is more that the Welsh Government could be doing. We are still awaiting an announcement from the Westminster Government on financial support. It's clear that the voice of the Minister for culture in that place—the Conservative Minister for culture—isn't being heard within his own Cabinet, and therefore instead of awaiting that announcement, an announcement that may never come, and any consequentials, I believe that the Welsh Government needs to come up with a specific package of support. I would argue that that should be seen as an investment and that the arts should be a central part of the framework for the COVID recovery that is currently being drawn up by Government.
The performing arts and theatres are suffering greatly, with income from live performances having disappeared, and this is true of national institutions as well as community organisations. The arts are a crucial part of Welsh life. It is part of the Welsh soul, not only historically and culturally, but in our daily lives. The arts have played a central role in helping people to cope with the significant pressures that have come as a result of lockdown, and they can continue to play a central role in our lives. They can assist us to process and express what we're going through during this unprecedented time.
The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 makes reference to evidence that demonstrates that appreciation of the arts and creativity is beneficial for our economic, environmental, social and cultural well-being. Why not take the opportunity as a result of this crisis to place the arts firmly at the centre of all aspects of our lives, whilst appreciating fully that the arts have a preventative value, a restorative value, an economic value, a social value and a spiritual value? So, I would go further than what's contained within the report. I would today call for the arts to receive support as part of our positive scheme to move forward and out of this COVID crisis, so that the arts can play a central role during this time, as a means for the sector to survive, yes, but also in order for the arts and the creative sector to assist us to understand the situation that we're currently facing and to be a central part of the process of recovery from this pandemic.

Thank you. I now have to call the Minister, and I apologise to those people who are down to speak, but this is only a 30-minute debate. So, I do apologise. I'm now going to call the Minister to respond. No, sorry—not to respond to the debate; this is a committee report. Sorry, Helen. I call the Minister to take part in this debate—Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I first of all express my thanks for the opportunity to respond to a debate on the importance of the arts during a crisis, a position that I fully approve and fully support?
I accept that there's a need for us as a Government to understand that the arts are more than simply another part of Government, and that there are possibilities in using culture and the arts, particularly the performing arts, music, theatre, drama, and so on, as a means of regenerating people's lives during these difficult times. We know from the history of theatre throughout the years and music throughout the years that this can happen.
I also agree with the arguments that have been made on the importance of us calling on the Treasury, and we have done that already. I've written to the Treasury on this issue. But may I say that I don't consider myself to be a lobbier of the Treasury, because we are a Government here in Wales? We don't lobby the Westminster Government, we ask as a right that we should be recognised as a Government in terms of what should happen.
I also accept that there is community and national value to the arts and that therefore the possibilities of moving forward and using the arts is crucial. I don't agree that we need a particular action group to do this, because I think we do have within our national institutions, the arts council and the other arts organisations, the capacity to do this. I do pledge that, after this debate, I will once again look at the priorities that we have set for those organisations.
May I say how pleased I was to hear robust talk about the black and ethnic minority community here in Wales? We're all minorities in different ways, and I don't think that we have properly understood in the past that the BAME community in our nation is so important for us. If I can speak quite clearly on this, it's as important as Welsh speakers as a minority. That's something that I have believed over the years and now I am making that point as culture Minister. I intend to take action on it so that we can learn lessons from linguistic equality that we need that same kind of mission in terms of racial equality, and we are a long way from achieving that at the moment.
May I thank David Melding once again for his comments, and may I say that we understand the importance of public-private partnership in the arts? I'm not going to make any statements in this brief debate on the future of Theatr Clwyd or the millennium centre, but may I say that we are working hard as a Government? I don't have the budget in my department, but we're working hard as a Government to ensure that we can take care of both national institutions in south and north Wales.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Rhianon Passmore, as always, inspires me with her love of music and her absolute commitment to music, and I'm very grateful to you yet again for emphasising the fact that we in Welsh Government need to stand up clearly in this situation and make it clear to the UK Government that we support live music and that we support in particular orchestral music, which is the highest achievement, obviously, of the musical sector.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: And then finally Siân Gwenllian. Thank you for your request to reassess Welsh Government support for the arts. I take that seriously, too, and I will seek to respond to it over the coming months that I have in this role. I also accept that live performance is crucial, not just in terms of income for organisations but also in terms of people's experience and that the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 does place a duty on us as a Government today to take action for the arts. Thank you.

Thank you. Before I call Helen Mary to respond to the debate, I have had notification of an intervention and, as this is a debate, I will take that intervention. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirpwy Lywydd. Thank you very much for this. I'm not used to doing interventions at this point in a debate, but it's a very brief point that I'll ask the Minister to take on board. On page 22 of the report, which I very much welcome and thank Helen Mary and her colleagues for it, Liam Evans-Ford, the executive director of Theatr Clwyd, calls for involvement from the people who run the venues and the companies to build the operational plan, going forward, rather than non-operational bodies coming up with a framework. I suggest to the Minister, as a former arts manager myself, that that is precisely who he needs to be engaging with and listening to, including people like the not-for-profit Awen Cultural Trust in Bridgend, which runs venues big and small, grand, but their objective is not just to spread arts and culture but to actually make people's lives better. Please, please, please listen to those up and down the country, because they are the ones who do democratisation of culture and cultural democratisation all in one great synthesis. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dafydd.

Thank you. I call Helen Mary Jones to reply to the debate.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to begin by thanking all Members for their contributions to this debate. One thing that I know for certain is that many people who work in the sector are very worried and feel under a lot of pressure at the moment, and they will have been hugely reassured to hear the support and the strength of feeling about the importance of the arts from across the Chamber today.
Time doesn't allow me to respond to everyone, but I do want to make a few responses. I'd like to thank David Melding for his kind words about my chairing. There could not have been a worse time, in some ways, to start chairing a committee, but I certainly had amazing support from the staff and from my fellow Members. I think David's point about the importance of retaining the muscle memory of the sector was something that came out very clearly from our evidence. If we lose the sector as we have it now, it will take decades to rebuild it, if it's ever possible to rebuild it at all, and it's important to remember, of course, that the arts workforce is international, it's very flexible, and if we can't retain people here, much of our best talent may choose to go elsewhere.
Rhianon's passion, particularly for music, is always inspiring. I fully agree with all she says about the seriousness of the situation, and I also agree that we will need investment both from the UK and from the Welsh Government to ensure that our arts sector survives as it goes forward.
Siân Gwenllian's points about the need to reassess I thought were very well made, and that's why the committee has asked for a new national plan, a new way forward, developed with the sector, and I support what Huw Irranca-Davies says both about involving the sector in the immediate response and how we build back better, but also in looking forward to what our arts and culture may mean to us. Of course, the significance, as Siân says, of the arts in helping us to understand what we've all been through and helping us to recover as individuals, as communities and as a nation is something that we must not lose sight of. We as a committee would strongly support the call for Welsh Government to act and invest, and the point she also made about the importance of this being not just the big national institutions, but also those local community groups that many Members have referred to that bring us into touch with our arts in everyday life.
Can I thank the Deputy Minister very much for his overall positive response? He's right that the arts are at the heart of our lives, even in the heart of this dreadful crisis. I must apologise for our use of the word 'lobbying'; I take full responsibility for that. We do not expect our Ministers to lobby Westminster Government, we expect them to have discussions with them. I take full responsibility for the wrong word, but I'm sure that he knows what we mean. And I'm sure that he also appreciates the urgency of those discussions, and the urgency of the sector knowing something about what's going to happen, because the truth is that as August comes around and businesses and organisations are expected to contribute towards the cost of furlough, organisations with no income will not be able to do this, and our arts sector is therefore is on a financial knife edge and I'm sure he knows that.
I respect the Minister's position that he doesn't feel the need to set up a separate group. He would, of course, expect me to say that we will scrutinise his work as he moves forward and his co-operation with the sector, and I know that he will welcome our doing so.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to bring my comments to an end by just saying again how much I know the sector will have valued the very positive, optimistic and I think committed tone of this debate. We look forward to the Government's formal response to us in due course, and I'm very grateful to the Minister that he's made some initial indications, but we wouldn't have expected a full response today. And I did just want to comment on what he said about the importance of live performance—that this is something that people participate in as well as simply watching, and it's very difficult to get that from a screen. And I'm also very grateful to him for accepting the points that we've made about the need to look again at diversity, and to ensure that our black and minority ethnic citizens are appropriately reflected at the heart of our cultural life.
So, with those few remarks, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to commend this report and this motion to the Senedd, and look forward to working with the sector to ensure that our cultural life is strengthened after this horrible crisis.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I'm not seeing an objection. Therefore, the committee's report is noted in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. Brexit Party Debate: Lifting Lockdown

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Neil McEvoy.

We now move on to item 10 on our agenda this afternoon, which is the debate by the Brexit Party on lifting—. Sorry, my screen's just frozen on me; I'll allow David Rowlands to tell us what the motion is, because I'm sure he's going to move it. David Rowlands.

Motion NDM7334 Caroline Jones
To propose that the Senedd:
Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) accelerate lifting of lockdown measures;
b) work with the UK Government to support a UK-wide approach;
c) facilitate faster re-opening of the Welsh economy;
d) rule out raising Welsh rates of income tax to pay the costs of an extended lockdown.

Motion moved.

David J Rowlands AC: Yes, okay. It's on lifting the lockdown, actually, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.
There is no doubt that the protection of public health in response to COVID-19 is raising extraordinary economic challenges. The UK Government has tried to freeze the economy using the job retention scheme, generous business loans and various handouts. But freezing the economy is the easy part. Just as we have not mastered the second phase in cryogenics—the unfreezing part—we do not know how to successfully unfreeze an economy. Both are complex systems that cannot simply be turned off and on. The economic scarring has already begun. Thousands of businesses are shutting down, undermining the productive capacity of the Welsh economy. There have already been serious job losses. Many who lose their jobs during a recession never find work again. Young people who are trying to enter the workforce could experience long-term loss of earnings.
Locking down the economy has also had extraordinary fiscal costs, increasing UK Government debt by billions. While this was justified to prevent a total economic collapse, maintaining such levels of Government spending over the long term is simply not sustainable. There's no doubt that balancing public health against the now dire need to unlock the economy is a very delicate and precarious task. But we in the Brexit Party now believe that it has to be done sooner rather than later. We are fast approaching a situation when many once prosperous businesses and enterprises will no longer be able to sustain themselves. Large-scale loss of businesses in this way will undoubtedly lead to health consequentials that may indeed outweigh those presented by COVID-19. The economic crash of 2008 saw 10,000 suicides. I have no figures relating to mental health issues for this particular pandemic, but it is widely predicted that, even if we open the economy up immediately, there will already be substantial increases in mental health issues.
The First Minister is adamant that we shall not see an easing of restrictions until he is certain that there will be no return to previous death rates from coronavirus. So, I feel we should analyse some of the statistics the First Minister relies on. There have been 1,483 recorded coronavirus-related deaths in Wales since the commencement of the epidemic. However, there is much anecdotal evidence emerging where coronavirus has been recorded as the cause of death, where the true cause has been a long-term, life-threatening illness such as cancer and heart disease, and whilst coronavirus was present, it could not be said to be the actual cause of death.
Each death is, of course, a tragedy to those who knew and loved those who died. But we must remember that thousands of deaths occur over the same period every year, some of which may have been avoidable if the right actions had been taken at the right time. Indeed, how many people will die because they have been afraid to seek medical interventions whilst this pandemic has been present?
We have to accept that this is the nature of things. We also have to consider how many young, fit and healthy people have died in Wales as a direct consequence of COVID-19. The truth is there have been very few. Again, although each was a tragedy in itself, we must have the courage to ask the question: 'Does it justify closing the whole economy and putting thousands of young people out of work, perhaps for a long period of time?' It can be argued that we should maintain the same lockdown procedures for those classified as 'vulnerable' for some time longer, but the argument for keeping everybody in lockdown is fast losing credibility.
Let me now turn briefly to those businesses suffering most from the lockdown—the service sector, and in particular, pubs, restaurants and the leisure industry in general, including hotels, campsites and holiday parks. I am sure that, with good management and social distancing measures in place, much of this sector could be opened up, as has been done in the automotive trade. I was particularly impressed by a video sent to me by Andy Sinclair, of the Sinclair Group, outlining their strategy for reopening, and I am certain many other car retailers will be introducing similar measures. Risks of infection with such strategies in place would be at an absolute minimum. There are many other business operations that are still under restrictions that could apply the same sorts of measures as the motor trade.
In this debate, Dirprwy Lywydd, we do not denigrate or criticise the First Minister or his Government for their actions during this coronavirus epidemic. Indeed, we would congratulate them on their robust economic interventions, and, in the most part, for the way these interventions have been delivered. There's no doubt that if it had not been for their actions, and the actions of the UK Government, the vast majority of Welsh businesses would be in a very precarious situation. The purpose of this debate is to ask the Government to accelerate its opening up of the economy. The time is fast approaching when, if we do not take action, the economy may take many, many years to recover—indeed, may never recover at all. We have heard that it is the most deprived areas that are worst hit by the lockdown. Valleys towns, which are already struggling, may lose many more retail outlets if it continues. We in Pontypool have just heard the news that one large retailer will not be reopening. Even one such loss is critical to our town centres. How often will this be replicated across our Valleys towns if the lockdown continues?
Yes, First Minister, there are risks, but we risk our lives every time we drive a car, so we take the precaution to avoid accidents, and we rely on thousands, indeed millions, to do the same. Tragically, people do die on our roads every year, but we do not stop people driving because of this. Ultimately, First Minister, how we come out of lockdown is a risk-assessment exercise. We believe that the risk element is now outweighed by the absolute necessity of getting the economy functioning again. There are many in the business community who are desperate to reopen—their finances are exhausted, their health and well-being are being put in jeopardy. First Minister, the people of Wales have suffered enough. We call upon you to accelerate the rate of coming out of the lockdown. The consequences of not doing so are dire, and may be worse than COVID-19 itself.

Thank you. I have selected amendment 1, tabled in the name of Neil McEvoy. The Member is not present to move the amendment. Does any Member wish to move that amendment formally? No. Therefore, the amendment falls. I call Darren Millar.

Amendment 1 not moved.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today we are going to be supporting this particular motion calling for a further relaxation in the lockdown measures, so that we can support the people of Wales to get more of their personal freedoms back. People across the country, of course, have made enormous sacrifices during the lockdown in order to help to protect the most vulnerable, to enable critical workers to help our country to respond to the pandemic, and to reduce the transmission of the virus—sacrifices like missing a family member's funeral, not seeing loved ones, or even a partner, for many months, and living under what are, frankly, the most oppressive infringements of civil liberties in this country's history.
Now, we accept that they've had to be introduced in order to protect people's lives. But people didn't give up these sacrifices to save lives only to suffer further loss of life through the potential unintended long-term consequences of a prolonged lockdown. We know that there are links between poverty and poor life expectancy and chronic disease. And, of course, if we don't lift the restrictions sufficiently quickly, then it is quite possible that we will suffer long-term impacts to our public health as a result.
The lack of social interaction and loneliness in recent months are now beginning to take their toll on people's mental health. The national health service's chief executive in Wales, Andrew Goodall, has cited an increase in patients displaying anxiety and emotional distress, and presenting at hospitals later than they should have before requiring the intervention that they need.And that's why we've seen significant falls, of course, in attendance at our emergency departments across the country. Now, while you might expect fewer alcohol-fuelled injuries over the weekends, this sort of drop does seem to suggest that many patients are fearful of presenting themselves at hospital because of a perceived coronavirus risk.
Now, of course, we all want the public to be vigilant, but I think an overly cautious relaxation of the lockdown does risk those further losses of life. We recognise there are no risk-free solutions here, but despite the best of intentions, we do believe that the Welsh Government's approach is now lagging behind what appears to be a common approach, or very similar approach, in Scotland, Northern Ireland and indeed in England with the UK Government, and I do think that we need to look at trying to adopt more of a four-nation approach going forward.
We've discussed at length in these sessions in recent weeks the cruel 5-mile rule, which we think needs to be dropped immediately. And I think it was a great shame that there was no relaxation of that rule on compassionate grounds in time for Father's Day this year, which of course we marked just over the weekend. Now, we welcomed, obviously, the reopening of non-essential retail on Monday, but, of course, there are limits to what local custom can do to support local businesses, and very often, many businesses in our towns across the country and villages across the country rely on much more than local custom in order to survive.
Now, part of the key to reopening our economy is the reopening of our schools. We know that our Welsh Government did make an announcement that all schools would be open for four weeks from 29 June. They, of course, have given a hospital pass to local authorities, asking them to make the decision on whether to extend the term by a single week, and I think that that was a mistake, and I think it does beg the question as to who's running the Welsh education system—is it the unions or is it the education Minister? And it certainly looks, from our perspective at the moment, as though the unions have one-up on the Minister in this respect at the moment.
We're very concerned, of course, because independent studies of education have concluded that there is less home-schooling going on in Wales than there is in the other UK nations, and that's probably because of the lack of consistency across the country. So, this latest lack of consistency in terms of how many weeks our children will be educated in the coming weeks is a great deal of concern.
So, in summary, then, Deputy Presiding Officer, I just want to say we do support the calls for a four-nation approach. We believe that the UK nations having different approaches has been confusing. Wales is now lagging behind—I think that's very, very clear, particularly given the announcements in Scotland today. We know that this epidemic is going to be here for some time, but we must now make sure that the Welsh Government adopts a 'lives and livelihoods' policy in order that we can protect people's lives in the longer term and enable people to be able to use their common sense, informing them of the risks, as we reopen our economy going forward.

Caroline Jones AC: Not since 1918 has the world experienced such a threat from a biological agent. The Spanish flu swept the globe, leaving death and destruction in its wake, and long after the dead were buried, the economic impacts were felt. Many believed the Spanish flu led to the Great Depression. The spread of severe, acute respiratory coronavirus too threatened to be another event like the 1918 flu outbreak, but because the world took decisive action, we have not seen tens of millions of people dying. Yes, the death toll is still horrible—in excess of 2,000 people have died in Wales, and thousands across the UK and nearly 500,000 people worldwide.
This disease has a high mortality rate among the sick and the elderly. And in order to protect our most vulnerable in society, we placed our entire country in quarantine, and, yes, it was the right thing to do. We were woefully unprepared for this virus, so in order to ensure our healthcare system did not become overwhelmed, we locked everyone away—the sick and the healthy, the young and the old. And thankfully, our NHS coped, and everyone's sacrifices, together with the hard work and dedication of our key workers, meant that we successfully flattened the curve. But we now have to balance the other side of the scales.
A possible vaccine is at least one to two years away. We can't keep everyone locked down for that long. We have to restore people's freedoms in order to prevent indirect harms. Lockdown has already greatly impacted people's mental health and we have seen a tremendous rise in loneliness and isolation: couples separated since mid March, families unable to visit one another and friends prevented from getting together, unless they are fortunate to live near each other. Social distancing has led to social isolation, and its effects have been keenly felt by those already suffering from mental ill health.
Some of the UK's top psychologists have warned that lockdown is greatly impacting the mental health of young people. Yet, some councils in Wales are only allowing them to go to school for a few hours every few weeks. This hugely risks damaging their development, to say nothing of the impact this is having on their education.
It's not just mental health that's affected, our NHS has stopped operating for all but a few essential services. We already have the worst cancer survival rates in the western hemisphere, yet we have stopped all screening services. People have not stopped getting sick because of COVID-19, and my worry is that the halt in health services will do lasting harm to many people. Our NHS could barely cope prior to this pandemic. Who knows what impact this pause will have on patients.
What we do know about this virus is the impact it is having on our poorest communities. Newport and Rhondda Cynon Taf have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic. Infection rates in these communities are some of the highest in the UK. News out last week also pointed to the fact that Wales has experienced the greatest increase of economic inactivity of any home nation. The economic fallout of our response to this pandemic could be felt for generations.
We are approaching the point where the cure is worse than the disease. Coronavirus hasn't gone away, but we are also no longer unprepared. We need to move away from quarantining the healthy towards isolating the sick and vulnerable. COVID-19 is here for the long haul, but we mustn't kill the patient to cure the disease. We can't stop people catching the virus, but we can stop its expediential spread by isolating them and not everyone else. Unless we accelerate the lifting of lockdown, we will end up doing greater and lasting harm, and I urge Members to support our motion.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for the opportunity to respond to the debate. There's nothing surprising about this motion by the Brexit Party. It's a party that has had all sorts of deniers in the past: the impact of humans on environmental change; even the impact of smoking on cancer. I'm sure this isn't their intention, but there is a risk that they are seen here as though they are denying the very real risks still arising from this particular virus.
Now, I'll start with where I agree with them—I am quite confident that everyone would agree, truth be told—which is that we do want to move out of the current restrictions. That's the direction of travel that we all want to see. And I myself have called on the Government to push and to test their own evidence continuously to ensure that there aren't things that we could be doing safely to provide people with more freedoms and to allow economic activity that isn't currently permissible—but it's that word 'safety' that is crucial there.And what is entirely missing from this motion is any reference to public safety and public health.
As I said, we in Plaid Cymru do want to relax the restrictions. We do understand how much of an impact this is having on people's well-being, and how much of an economic strain it's proving to be, and the restrictions shouldn't remain in place a second longer than they have to. But any request for haste in this without reference to safety is entirely irresponsible. I would say that we need to move as quickly as possible, as long as that is safe.
What I certainly think is required from the Welsh Government is far more forward planning, far more transparency in terms of its vision and the road map. But we are following a three-weekly pattern, and I don't think that that's sufficient. I do think the Government should have provided a more phased approach, as the Republic of Ireland Government has done, noting what the Government would hope to be able to do in terms of relaxing restrictions and allowing the resumption of economic activity over a period of months, with the major caveat, of course, that things could change.
I'm speaking to businesses in my constituency continually, and it's the uncertainty that's been most difficult for them in many ways. To give you an example: the Scottish Government has announced today that pubs and restaurants will be allowed to open—outdoors first of all—on 3 July, if my memory serves me correctly, and then they'll be open as indoor operations some 10 days later. I would be delighted if the Welsh Government would consider a similar timetable, and announce that as soon as possible. But the difference between my view and the Brexit Party view is that I only want it to happen if the Government can be convinced that it is safe, and also to explain why, if they think it isn't safe, they couldn't take that step, and also to put an alternative timetable in place as soon as possible, because that kind of clarity is crucial.
Now, as we, hopefully, move to relaxing restrictions, there are a number of things that have to be put in place. Once again, I think the Brexit Party is irresponsible in not referring to these. The most crucial is to have a proper and robust test and trace system to protect the public and to lay the foundations for raising the restrictions. I am concerned that we are in the early days of test and trace. This should have been a central part of the strategy in the battle against COVID-19 throughout this period, in accordance with WHO recommendations.
I want to conclude by referring to a comparison drawn by David Rowlands in opening this debate. We take a risk by driving a car, he says, but we don't stop people from driving. No, we don't, but you do seek to make cars as safe as possible, you place restrictions on speed, you have a highway code in place, and you have to pass a test before you can get behind the wheel. And, at the moment, we are all still in a learning process. And I think that kind of attitude by the Brexit Party summarises just how heedless they are with this motion.
I'm critical of the Government in many ways—for a lack of clarity and for moving too slowly in certain areas, including being too slow in going into lockdown in the very first instance. But I'm also very critical of the English Government for overseeing a disaster in terms of death rates, and how Brexit Party Members and the Conservatives would want to say that the priority is to be the same as England—well, I simply can't understand that approach, and it appears to me that unionist ideology is more important to them than public health.

Mandy Jones AC: Rhun, me and you both smoke, so we're both guilty of something on that one.
We've been in lockdown now for more than 13 weeks.We were told this was to protect the NHS and to flatten the curve. I think we all understood that the timing of the lockdown was very finely balanced, but I doubt anyone consented to having their liberty curtailed for this length of time. And now here we are 13 weeks in. The curve has been flattened, the NHS has coped—at least with COVID. Why are we still in lockdown? When exactly was the date of the change to cure or vaccine or elimination? When did that happen? And here I am repeating the same questions I posed a few weeks ago that were not even acknowledged by the First Minister, let alone answered,so I would appreciate answers today, please.
Wales remains in lockdown in ways that are cruel, very damaging in terms of reputation and risks, and, to my mind, you are storing up many and varied non-COVID problems that will test the NHS again and risk lives and livelihoods again and again. Your messaging has been incoherent. You only spoke out about mass protests after they happened, and, yes, many of my constituents did agree with me that this was indeed a slap in the face for all of those who diligently followed your rules.
We now have a file-mile rule that is a rule, also a rule of thumb, also a guidance and a judgment call. It cannot be all of these things and enforceable in the courts or by law. Our constituents are our eyes and ears, and they tell me that testing centres around them appear largely empty. So, where are you with testing? Are you actually meeting your targets?
And, following on from that, the R rate in Wales is low, at 0.5 last week, and I think I need to offer my congratulations for that, but surely that number is really dependent on testing. If we don't know how many have COVID or have had COVID, isn't the R rate absolutely meaningless? I'd also point out that, while lockdown measures have been in place, there aretwo very concerning outbreaks of COVID on Anglesey and Wrexham.
I am truly glad that field hospitals were created in double-quick time and not needed. This is a good thing. However, I am deeply concerned about the number of deaths that have been recorded officially as COVID. I'm hearing from some constituents that their loved ones' deaths are recorded as being due to COVID when no actual testing took place and no symptoms were present. Others tell of pre-existing serious conditions like cancer, where the death has also been recorded as COVID. There is a massive difference between 'of COVID' and 'with COVID': even the ONS uses the term 'involving COVID'. How can the Welsh public have confidence that the total number of deaths recorded is actually accurate?
Just last week, your deputy chief medical officer signed off on a reduction in the alert status to 3, a very welcome development, and yet Wales's lockdown measures are currently the most stringent in the whole of the UK. Why? The three-weekly reviews have been interminable for those literally fighting for the survival of their businesses, and, while I welcome some clarity for tourism-based businesses, what do you think business owners are doing in these last few weeks? They're not waiting for you to say, 'Spend the next three weeks preparing' like you did with the non-essential retail and, last time, hairdressers: they have prepared and they are ready. They have been ready for weeks. It may come as a surprise to you, but businesses can be trusted to do what's right to keep themselves, their staff and their customers safe, and most individuals can take the steps needed to keep themselves and their friends and loved ones safe too. We don't need our lives or our businesses micromanaged by Welsh Government.
From what I see in my inbox, Wales was happy to put its trust in both Welsh and UK Governments at the start, but that trust is now wearing incredibly very thin, and, in many cases, has evaporated. I think it's time to end the lockdown. Trust us, the Welsh public, to use our judgment and to live our lives and to take care of ourselves, those and each other. Thank you.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to the Brexit Party for tabling today's debate. I think it's a timely one, because yet again we are seeing important differences between the UK Government's response to the crisis on one hand and the Welsh Government's response on the other. Why do we have these differences? The First Minister and his Cabinet colleagues, notably the health Minister, keep telling us that they 'follow the science'. What on earth does this actually mean? It's disingenuous nonsense. Their science is no different from the UK Government's science, yet they're coming to completely different conclusions. Can I say to Mark Drakeford: don't kid us that this is all down to science?The Welsh people are not children, so why not be honest with us? This is apolitical decision, because you want Wales to stay in lockdown for longer than England. Mark Drakeford wants to then go to the Welsh public and say, 'Look what the UK Government has done in England; they're risking people's lives.' Unfortunately, this argument falls down when we consider that Mark Drakeford and Vaughan Gething have themselves been culpable of public health crises through their totally incompetent running of the health service in Wales. They say they're so intent on protecting public health, but Vaughan Gething goes out for a family picnic on a park bench in blatant defiance of the rules he himself has brought in. Mark Drakeford makes statements that often seem to demonstrate that he does not even know what his own Government's rules are. We do need more co-ordination with the UK Government. Mark Drakeford refuses to provide this. He said today he is waiting for evidence from the UK Government, as though Westminster has somehow been remiss in not updating him. But we know that Mark Drakeford didn't even attend COBRA meetings for several weeks, when he was able to do so.
It seems to me that this omission is part of a deliberate strategy: the First Minister wants to remain out of the Westminster loop so he can push his own policies and claim he doesn't know what the UK Government is thinking. This allows him to go on pursuing his own policies in Wales that will be economically disastrous. I would like to ask the First Minister: who is going to pay for an extended lockdown here in Wales? He wants businesses to remain closed for longer, which will cost more jobs and livelihoods. Then, in a short while, he will go to Westminster with a begging bowl and ask for more money for Wales. First Minister, what do you think the UK Government will do with your begging bowl when you have decided to do things differently in Wales? In all probability, they will throw the begging bowl back in your face, so we will end up with the Welsh Labour Government after the election next year having to use its income tax powers to try and balance the books, which will mean Welsh people paying more taxes than people in England. Isn't having the Welsh Assembly turning out to be really wonderful for the people of Wales? More and more people are concluding that we will ultimately need to abolish the Assembly. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Neil Hamilton AC: I strongly support this motion, because what is most glaring about our experience of coronavirus is the lack of evidence that the lockdown, the draconian lockdown, has had any useful purpose at all. It was based originally on predictions by Professor Neil Ferguson of Imperial College in London that proved to be utterly absurd in the event, and the Swedish Government received studies based upon Professor Ferguson's model if they didn't introduce a lockdown, and that model projected that their critical-care demand in Sweden would peak at above 16,000 or even 20,000 a day, whereas in fact the reality, in the outcome, was 500 a day. A difference of that kind is not science. That is statistical manipulation; it's junk science.
What we do know about coronavirus is that 98 per cent of the people who contract it either have no symptoms at all, or they certainly don't have anything like serious or critical symptoms. It affects in a severe way 2 per cent of those who contract it, and what we know also about the deaths from coronavirus is that 80 per cent of them have been people aged over 80. This virus does not attack people who are part of the working population on the whole. Nobody who's economically active in Wales, beyond a very small number, is likely to be at risk from a relaxation of the lockdown. There's a much greater risk from continuing it than there is from relaxing it.
Nobody, of course, can prove these predictions; you can't prove the future. But what we can do is look at the past, see what has happened, and see how it measures up with what was then predicted before these measures were introduced, and the reality is that the measures simply don't add up as having been worthwhile; in fact, they've been wholly counter-productive. When you look at the experience of countries that have relaxed their lockdowns or didn't have them at all, like Sweden, we find that the infection rate in the United Kingdom was far higher in the first place, and also the death rate of the United Kingdom was far higher. Per 1 million people, 4,500 people in the UK have contracted coronavirus, and the death rate has been 632 per million. In Sweden, there's a higher infection rate at 6,000 per million, but a lower death rate at only 500 per million. In Austria, a much, much lower infection rate of below 2,000, and almost no deaths at all—only 77 in the whole country, according to the Worldometer website today. Germany, similarly: half the infection rate that we've had in this country with only100 deaths, instead of the 632 deaths per million that we've got.
So, of the people who die from the virus, we know also that 90 per cent of them have had at least one pre-existing condition—90 per cent of the cases. Twenty per cent of the people who have died from coronavirus had dementia or Alzheimer's disease; these are not people who are part of the working population and need to be protected from their own personal irresponsibilities. The great tragedy of the coronavirus is that the Government has applied entirely the wrong remedy to the crisis right from the start. It's concentrated on locking down the whole economy, whilst not protecting the people who were most at risk in nursing homes and care homes. It's like going to hospital for heart surgery to find that your surgeon, instead of having a collection of scalpels, has come into the operating theatre with a chainsaw.
Now, the virus—. Sorry. The R rate, the rate of transmission of the virus, which the Government bases its policy on, is itself only an average of what they think it might be, and actually disguises the reality of coronavirus, which is that what we know is that a great proportion of the serious cases that have developed, and this is not just in Britain, this is throughout the world, have come from a very small number of super-spreaders. Eighty per cent of the cases in Hong Kong have come from 20 per cent of the initial cases. So, the R rate is a mythical figure that can't be calculated anyway because we don't know what proportion of the population has got any kind of natural immunity. We've all acquired some sort of immunity from coronavirus because we've all had the common cold. Nobody actually knows how protective these immunities are, but we do know from other circumstances that there must be such cross immunities.
Can you remember the Diamond Princess cruise ship right at the start of the crisis? A small, confined environment, where the disease was allowed to run rampant for weeks before it was recognised as a major problem. Only 19 per cent of the passengers on that vessel actually contracted the coronavirus. Professor Sunetra Gupta, a professor of theoretical epidemiology at Oxford University, says that the coronavirus has followed the same pattern worldwide, irrespective of the lockdown policies of different Governments. Professor Yonathan Freund, a professor of emergency medicine at the Sorbonne university, says that a second wave can be absolutely ruled out from what we know of the epidemiology of the disease. So, when Rhup ap Iorwerth says that we need to prove our case, then I'm basing what I say on the science and on the scientists, not on statistical modellers, because statistical modelling is not science.
Another factor that's involved in coronavirus as well, and all viruses actually, is we don't know enough about them to know about the progress of diseases and why they behave in the way that they do. Many viruses disappear like SARS did, for no reason that is apparent at all. Six months after SARS appeared on the planet, it disappeared. Professor David Heymann, a professor in infectious disease epidemiology at the London school of tropical health and tropical medicine, who headed the global response to SARS at the World Health Organization, has pointed out that SARS spread easily and killed a tenth of those who were infected, but actually disappeared within six months.

Can I ask the Minister—sorry, the Member—to wind up, please?

Neil Hamilton AC: Yes, I have actually come to the end of what I intend to say. So, on the basis of what we know about the science, and the facts of what we know about the way that this epidemic has developed in the course of the last few months, I believe there is an irresistible case for relaxing the lockdown as quickly as possible.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans?

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Welsh Government rejects this motion, and I will address each of the four elements of the original motion in turn.
Firstly, in Wales, we have deliberately taken a careful and evidence-based approach to the easing of lockdown, and our primary objective is always to keep Wales safe. We've explained how we're doing this in 'Leading Wales out of the coronavirus pandemic: a framework for recovery', and in 'Unlocking our society and economy: continuing the conversation'. We are easing restrictions when we are satisfied that changes will not threaten public health. The law in Wales requires those restrictions to be kept under review, to ensure that they're proportionate.
The most recent review was concluded on 18 June, and scientific advice allowed the Welsh Government to seek to significantly ease restrictions over the next three weeks. This includes enabling non-essential retail businesses to reopen this week where they can take reasonable measures to comply with physical distancing duties. Childcare can restart and schools will increase operations from next week. It remains necessary to continue to ask people to stay in their local area unless they have a reasonable excuse to travel further, but we will seek to lift this restriction on 6 July if the conditions permit.
Secondly, we continue to advocate working closely with the UK Government within a four-nations approach. But, let me clear: the four Governments need to operate as equal partners, with mutual respect for each other's responsibilities. The Welsh Government must take actions that reflect the circumstances and requirements in Wales. And, as the First Minister put it, England is not the template for the rest of the UK.
In the early days of the pandemic, we had to rely on emergency response machinery under COBRA. This engagement was largely positive. For example, we worked closely and at incredible pace to produce the Coronavirus Act 2020 and put in place the lockdown. However, the UK Government now, unfortunately, appears to be pulling away from this four-nations approach. We need to jointly agree inter-governmental mechanisms that ensure that we can work together effectively in the next phase of recovery from COVID-19.
In relation to the motion's third element, we recognise the need to get the Welsh economy moving, but only where workplaces are as safe as they can reasonably be. Hence, Wales is the only part of the UK to include 2m social distancing requirements for workplaces in regulations. We have put in place the most generous package of help for businesses anywhere in the UK: a total of £1.7 billion of support equivalent to 2.7 per cent of our gross domestic product. This includes more than 56,000 grant awards across Wales via our rates related package with £680 million of support. In addition, our £500 million economic resilience fund has so far helped nearly 8,000 businesses with more than £200 million of support.
As set out in the first supplementary budget debated earlier today, we moved rapidly to repurpose EU funding to maximise the support offered to businesses based on the needs that exist in Wales. And it simply will not be possible to provide this level of rapid support in the future if the UK Government rolls back our powers on EU successor funds.
A recent poll by Survation indicated that people in Wales would like to see the Welsh Government develop its own economic strategy for recovery, and I think this is a reflection of the trust that people have in this Government to deliver a recovery that works for Wales.
Finally, our manifesto confirmed the intention not to increase income tax during this Assembly term, and I intend to stick to that decision. The rates for this year were, of course, agreed by the Senedd on 3 March, and it will be for a future Welsh Government to consider Welsh tax rates going forward, and for the Senedd to vote on them, and an opposition debate is not the place to be setting future tax policy.
Dirprwy Lywydd, good public health outcomes will form the foundation of an economic recovery that lasts. That is why we will continue to base our approach on the evidence and work in partnership to ease the lockdown and rebuild. Diolch.

Thank you. Before I call Mark Reckless to reply to the debate, is there a Member who needs an intervention? No. Therefore, I'll call Mark Reckless to reply to the debate. Mark.

Mark Reckless AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. We're certainly getting less interventions with this approach. I don't know whether that improves the quality of debate or not.
But, can I start by thanking David Rowlands for his excellent introduction to our motion? David emphasisedthe long-term impact on the economy of this lockdown, the non-COVID health consequentials, and the particular impact the lockdown is having on young people, and that underpinned his conclusion that the lockdown needed to be lifted sooner rather than later.
We then had a contribution from Darren Millar, and I'd like to thank the Conservatives for supporting our motion, and also particularly thank Darren for his lack of amendment to even make modest changes to our motion on this occasion. It's good we're of one mind on this.

Mark Reckless AC: He referred, also, to the non-COVID health impact and the risk that that was going to lead to further loss of life than any lives that would be saved by continuing lockdown. I think that's a very strong point, and when the Minister and others urge caution, I would respond that caution cuts both ways and, as I think some Members recognise, there's no avoidance of risk in the decisions that we make.
Darren also, I think, rightly made the point that Wales was not just a comparison with England, but we were lagging behind Scotland and Northern Ireland and the UK generally in a four-nations approach, or the lack of one. I mean, he was perhaps a little less strong, I thought, with the emphasis towards the end on the cruel five-mile rule that we've heard so much about from the Conservatives. We heard about it at First Minister's questions as a slightly puzzling exchange, because the First Minister took great exception to Paul Davies describing it as a rule, but then told us that he'd be keeping the rule for another two weeks.
We then had Caroline Jones from the Brexit Party group give us all an excellent contribution. And, yes, at the beginning, when we didn't have an opportunity to vote on the regulations until much later, it did make sense to put the whole country in quarantine in order to protect the vulnerable, because the country was so woefully unprepared that either test or trace, or what was then described as 'cocooning' the vulnerable, were unlikely to work. But the purpose of what we did was to flatten the curve, and we were successful within that, yet the restrictions have continued. Social distancing can quickly become social isolation, she told us, and that has a particular impact on people's mental health. I think the best we can do now is to stop an exponential, substantial increase rather than expect the virus to be eradicated, although, of course, that would be very good and could happen for reasons that are totally unconnected to any intervention we may make.
We then heard from Rhun ap Iorwerth. I was slightly puzzled by his initial comments about whether there were links between smoking and cancer. I mean, that's been clear since at least the Doll studies in the early 1950s. He emphasised safety, but again, that applies both ways. Again, I was puzzled by his final sort of attack on the Brexit Party for not including reference to proper robust test and trace in our motion. Indeed, that's why we'd have been happy to vote for Neil McEvoy's amendment. If Rhun was so keen to have it in the motion, all he needed to do was to move that motion from Neil McEvoy. But I know, because of the challenge the Welsh National Party may be making to Plaid Cymru, that was not something that he wanted to do.
We then heard from Mandy Jones, who spoke, again, about the need to flatten the curve, as we were told this was for, and when did it change? We've had no answer to that. And without an answer to that, what this lockdown does, it may postpone COVID deaths, but it may not eliminate them, or not to any significant degree, while creating greatly more non-COVID deaths as well as destroying the economy and people's well-being. So, that's why we say it's time to lift these restrictions.
Gareth Bennett then referred to differences between UK and Wales and how the First Minister and Welsh Government were seemingly creating differences for the sake of it rather than reflecting the science. He then said, very similar, again, to a First Minister's question I put earlier: who's going to pay for this in the end? They'll try and blame the UK Government, but when we've got things differently in Wales because we insist on it, why is the UK Government going to step in and pay for the consequences to that? So, ultimately, Welsh rates of income tax are going to go up. Yet, as Gareth may have seen earlier, if you raise that with the First Minister, you're accused of wanting to live in another country, as if people aren't able to object to what the Senedd does, to what the Welsh Government does, without people questioning their presence in the Welsh polity. And in that conclusion Gareth came to, he ended, I think, by saying more and more people concluding, 'Abolish the Assembly', which I assume was a reference to his exciting announcement that he had earlier today, although he didn't refer to it expressly.
We then had Neil Hamilton, who said the wrong remedy was the lockdown and, actually, we should be protecting the vulnerable. And, again, the burden of proof on this should be for the proponents of people who are taking away people's liberty and trying to keep people in lockdown. When these measures are lifted in different countries, there has not been a terribly clear link between the degree of lockdown and the prevalence of this disease.
I'd then like to thank the Minister for her comments. She refers to being personally cautious, but, actually, the inverse of that is the contrary for the economy, and also for people's health, potentially, from a non-COVID perspective. I'm slightly perplexed that she then said it was all a problem with the UK Government pulling away and not having meetings or co-operating with the Welsh Government. I recall it was, I think, the First Minister who boycotted a meeting with Michael Gove, and he'd been pre-empted on Brexit or similar. But, we're clearly going to disagree with the Government on this.
We're pleased to have the Conservative support, even if they did vote to put the 2m social distancing into law, and that's one of the things holding back the economy. But we need to get going, we need to sort this out, we need to get the economy back functioning again and the balance of risk on this lockdown is now the other way, such that we need to lift it as soon as possible not just to get the economy going, but also to protect our health generally.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Thank you. Therefore, we'll defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

11. Welsh Conservatives Debate: COVID and the economy

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Siân Gwenllian. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

We now move on to item 11 on our agenda this afternoon, which is the Welsh Conservative debate on COVID and the economy, and I call on Paul Davies to move their motion. Paul.

Motion NDM7339 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises that the coronavirus pandemic is both a public health and an economic emergency.
2. Welcomes the economic benefits afforded to Wales as a result of being part of the United Kingdom during the pandemic, including funding for:
a) the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme which is protecting 316,500 livelihoods in Wales;and
b) the Self-Employed Income Support Scheme which is helping 102,000 people in Wales.
3. Notes with concern the Centre for Towns report 'Covid and our Towns' which suggests that the economies of towns in the valleys and on the north Wales coast will be among those hardest hit by the pandemic.
4. Calls upon the Welsh Government to establish a Covid Community Recovery Fund to provide targeted economic support for those communities most adversely affected by the pandemic.

Motion moved.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. The impact of COVID-19 on communities and sectors across Wales has been unlike anything we've seen, and whilst we must accept that the pandemic has been a public health crisis, it's also been an economic crisis too. The very nature of the virus has completely halted the normal day-to-day interactions of us all and, in turn, our economy has largely come to a halt.
For that reason, we welcome the economic benefits afforded to Wales, as a result of being part of the United Kingdom, during the pandemic. For example, we know that the coronavirus job retention scheme has helped protect over 316,000 livelihoods in Wales, and the self-employed income support scheme continues to help over 100,000 people in Wales—all very welcome interventions and all making an important contribution to supporting people in Wales. That's why I've been keen to push further collaboration between the UK and Welsh Governments so that no stone is left unturned in helping our people come through this pandemic period.
Of course, it's still very difficult to quantify the impact that the virus has and continues to have on our economy. In April alone, the UK economy shrank by 20per cent. In that same month, unemployment in Wales almost doubled. Almost a third of the working-age population in Wales has been furloughed. Indeed, research conducted by the Learning and Work Institute in April found that 250,000 jobs in Wales were in shutdown sectors, and that equates to nearly one in five jobs across the country. The research found that if just one in four of these workers lost their jobs, unemployment could exceed the levels seen at the last recession, and that's still a fear that we must face, even as the Welsh Government starts to allow non-essential retail and other sectors to reopen.
Now, the First Minister's statement last Friday was a welcome one. Wales desperately needed to see economic activity resume, and so it's good to see that some businesses are now resuming operations and trading once again. However, we must remember that this doesn't mean that businesses on the high street or in our town centres are magically saved. Many are carrying substantial debt, many will not be able to take on their previous staff, and some will still struggle to stay afloat. Opening up some businesses is a step forward, but keeping those businesses alive is now the challenge.
The Centre For Towns report into COVID-19 and its impact on our towns rightly highlights that there are a number of challenges for businesses in Wales, both in the short term and in the medium and long terms. We know that the short-term crisis presented by the shutdown of large parts of the economy has disproportionately hit small and medium-sized coastal towns, but there's also a significant problem for businesses in the medium and long terms too. Of course, the continued closure of the hospitality sector means that thousands of jobs across Wales are still at risk, and businesses are still vulnerable. Towns like Abertillery and Aberystwyth are amongst some of the places in the UK with the highest percentage of people employed in pubs and restaurants. Without urgent intervention, the continued closure of this sector will lead to further instability for those businesses, further job losses, and the local landscape could be seriously transformed for the foreseeable future.
Small businesses like many pubs and restaurants across the country have been working hard to adapt their business models. They've innovated and they've significantly contributed to their local communities. Therefore, I hope, moving forward, the Welsh Government and local authorities will be doing everything in their power to procure goods and services locally, and, where they can, use small and medium-sized businesses to help build resilience in local communities. It's now time to double down on our procurement practices in Wales to best support those businesses and help support their recovery.

Paul Davies AC: The Centre For Towns report also highlights that the impact of COVID-19 on Welsh communities has been exacerbated by existing structural inequalities that have not been tackled by the Welsh Government. The report shows that Valleys communities and seaside towns in Wales, such as Rhyl, Ebbw Vale and Maesteg, are amongst the most vulnerable to an economic downturn caused by COVID-19. Of course, many of these places are still yet to recover from the macroeconomic shift from an industrial economy to one dominated by high-skilled, white-collar employment or retail. As we already know, some of these ex-industrial and coastal towns were already in need of significant investment prior to the virus outbreak, and crucial investment is needed now more than ever.
Now, last week's statement also introduced some tentative proposals for reopening parts of the tourism industry, and the announcement confirmed that self-contained accommodation providers can start to prepare for reopening in the next few weeks. However, the feedback that I've received from tourism operators in Pembrokeshire is that, in reality, this will be a big challenge. Tourism businesses will need to prepare risk assessments, and in the event, for example, that a guest develops COVID-19 symptoms whilst on holiday, the provider will have to allow for that guest to stay and self-isolate. This, of course, results in more questions than answers for some operators—for example, who pays for the extended stay of someone shielding in a self-catering apartment or cottage? Who compensates the guests that are unable to book as a result of an extended stay?
The Welsh tourism industry is worth £3 billion to our economy, and it's these sorts of questions and much more that need to be ironed out before operators can be confident that they're able to open their doors. These questions for self-contained accommodation providers and the lack of support and clarity for so many operating in the tourism sector continue to be hugely worrying. Therefore, perhaps, in responding to our debate this afternoon, the Minister will commit to publishing a specific tourism sector strategy for the short, medium and long terms, with clear information, clear allocations of funding and clear details about how the Welsh Government will be supporting those businesses going forward.
Now, I've attended a series of online business forums to discuss the general challenges facing businesses in my own area, and I've attended a series of online business forums especially for tourism businesses in my constituency. The outcome of those discussions is clear: more support is needed, more communication and more clarity are required. And, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's not just tourism businesses that are struggling, and that are feeling left behind. I continue to receive correspondence from sole-director limited companies who simply feel that the Welsh Government isn't even acknowledging them, let alone supporting them. I've also received correspondence from business partnerships who again tell me the Welsh Government isn't acknowledging or working with them. These are people's jobs, their incomes and their livelihoods, so at the very least they deserve to be genuinely listened to and offered some support to help their businesses survive.
Members will be aware that we've called on the Welsh Government to come forward with a recovery fund for those areas most affected by COVID-19 economically, and I hope the Welsh Government will consider this. The Welsh Government needs to send a clear statement to these communities that they are being prioritised and that that support is forthcoming. We've also called on the Government to create business rate-free zones in these communities and to scrap business rates for all businesses in those zones, regardless of value, to encourage employment post pandemic. I therefore urge the Government to consider the merits of this, too. Wales's post-COVID-19 recovery will be strengthened if the Welsh Government can work with all parties, and our communities deserve no less.
The final point that I'd like to touch upon is in relation to public transport. The First Minister's announcement last week said nothing of the impact that the changes announced would mean for public transport providers, and so I'd encourage the Welsh Government to urgently undertake discussions with public transport providers to ascertain how services will need to change in light of the reopening of some businesses and schools, given that people will need to get to some of these businesses, and children will need to get to schools. I appreciate that some funding has been forthcoming to local authorities to introduce measures to improve the safety and conditions for sustainable and active travel modes in their areas in response to the COVID-19 crisis, but, with social distancing guidance to be complied with and no further support for the bus industry, it will be extremely difficult for providers to provide additional services. Therefore, I hope a further commitment to the bus industry is forthcoming so that providers can start planning future services and ensure users are able to be transported effectively and efficiently.
Therefore, in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I hope the Welsh Government does consider some of the outstanding concerns of businesses across Wales and establishes clearer communication and guidance to the business industry so that Wales can start to rebuild its economy once again. Thank you.

Thank you. I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Can I ask the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans?

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans
Delete points 3 and 4 and replace with:
Welcomes the Welsh Government’s £500m Economic Resilience Fund, part of a £1.7bn package of support for business in Wales in response to the pandemic, which is the most generous anywhere in the UK.
Notes that EU funding has helped the Welsh Government respond to the Covid-19 pandemic and further notes that without successor funding the Welsh Government will be unable to respond at this scale in any future crisis.
Notes the Centre for Towns report ‘Covid and our Towns’ and welcomes the cross-government measures the Welsh Government is taking through its Town Centre Action Group and ‘Transforming Towns’ agenda across Wales.
Recognises the important role that creative and dynamic town councils and Business Improvement Districts will play in helping town centres recover from the economic impact of Coronavirus.
Welcomes the experimental work being done through the Foundational Economy Challenge Fund to explore new ways of building resilience into towns and communities across Wales which can support our response to the covid pandemic.
Welcomes calls made by organisations including WLGA, FSB Cymru, Wales TUC, Institute for Fiscal Studies and Wales Governance Centre for the UK Government to urgently remove the fiscal restrictions that significantly limit the Welsh Government’s spending power to allow it to respond effectively to the pandemic.
Further calls on the UK Government to develop a significant economic stimulus package that can support the Welsh Government’s work towards a green and just recovery for towns and communities the length and breadth of Wales in light of the pandemic.

Amendment 1 moved.

Ken Skates AC: Formally.

Thank you. Can I call on Helen Mary Jones to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian? Helen.

Amendment 2—Siân Gwenllian
Delete point 4 and replace with:
Calls upon the Welsh Government to establish an All-Wales Renewal Fund to deal with the effects of the pandemic, that would transform sectors identified as being hit hardest by Covid-19, build a sustainable Wales by paving the way to a carbon free nation by 2030 and develop a new sense of 'localism' which values public services.

Amendment 3—Siân Gwenllian
Add as new point at end of motion:
Believes that now is the time for the UK Government to devolve further fiscal powers to the Welsh Government so that it is able to better care for the people of Wales in light of the Covid-19 pandemic.

Amendments 2 and 3 moved.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m grateful to the Conservative group for tabling this important motion today. Of course, as we move out, perhaps, past the first health crisis phase of the crisis that faces us all, Paul Davies is quite right to say that the economic crisis will come into sharper focus, and I’m sure that we will continue to debate this and to scrutinise the Minister as the response to coming out of lockdown proceeds.
There’s much as a group that we can agree with in the Conservative motion, and I think it is right to be fair to the UK Government—the furlough scheme, the job retention scheme, for example, has made a tremendous difference. It’s not perfect, as I know the Minister knows, and I would urge Conservative colleagues to use what influence they may have with the Treasury to look at some of the gaps in that scheme: the new starters who were not helped and could still be helped now, and some increased flexibility in the scheme, and perhaps extending it for those sectors that can’t immediately go back to work, as we were discussing in the earlier debate on the arts, would be welcome.
The idea of a COVID recovery fund is not one that we would oppose, but, as we set out in our debate two weeks ago—and I don’t intend to set those arguments out again, Dirprwy Lywydd; I had the opportunity to do so in that debate—we feel that we need to go further than that, because this is not about recovery, this is not about going back to where we were before. There was, as Paul Davies has rightly highlighted in his speech, so much that was wrong in our economy before for so many communities and so many people. An economy that leaves a third of our children living in poverty is not one that we want to recover our way back to. This is about, for us, renewal, transformation, doing things better, moving further, hence our second amendment, which would replace the call for a COVID recovery scheme with our request for an all-Wales renewal fund—similar in its intentions, I think, but more ambitious in going further.
We also believe that the Welsh Government needs the power to be able to take the steps necessary itself, and this is why we’ve proposed our third amendment, asking for more fiscal autonomy for Wales at this time. I will refer in a moment to the Government amendment, but I think we are mistaken if we believe that we can rely on the Westminster Government to do this for us. And, if they won’t, then they must free up the hands of Welsh Government to act.
With regard to the Government amendment, we would agree, of course, with the point about the European Union, and there are other things in there that we could welcome, but I come back to this point about whether or not we can rely on the UK Government to dig us out of this hole. We’re not at all sure that that is the case. We believe it is the time to take more power into our own hands here in Wales to enable us to build back.
Now, Deputy Presiding Officer, if I wished to be churlish, I could say that I wasn’t really very keen on taking lessons on the economy from either the Labour Party or the Conservative Party. When it comes to the Conservative Party, their decade of austerity has left our communities and our economy fundamentally weak—you could say holed under the waterline—and they need to take some responsibility for some of the problems that Paul Davies has outlined. And when it comes to the Labour Party, of course, well, they could have reformed the Barnett formula decades ago when they had power to do so and chose not to, and they have been running the economy of Wales, alone or with others, for 20 years. But be that as it may, this is not a time for sniping, and I found much to support in Paul Davies’s contribution. This is a time when we all want and need Welsh Government to succeed. I think we are all, right across this Chamber, as one in that. The question is how best to do it. We can only respond effectively to this crisis, to build an economy that isn’t just greener and fairer, but green and fair, if we are able to borrow to invest and take the powers into our own hands to make that possible.

Thank you. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. COVID-19 is a health emergency. It is also an economic emergency. The number of people claiming unemployment-related benefits in Wales has almost doubled to 103,869 in April. That is 6.8 per cent of the Welsh workforce, worse than the UK average of 5.8 per cent. Aberconwy has not avoided this crisis. In fact, we have been seriously hit from all directions. And, as you know, whilst tourism has an estimated worth of more than £3 billion to the Welsh economy, the economic benefit here in Conwy is £900 million.
The stark situation facing us is supported by the Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce, which found that Conwy is the top area of Wales and one of the top 20 areas in the UK where the highest percentage of jobs are at risk. The reality is that we could lose 13,000 jobs and this is hardly news. I wrote to the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales about the crisis on 1 May and subsequently undertook a virtual meeting. However, I see no action on any proposals that a strategy must be put together to help Conwy. You have the powers, you have the levers; we just need your will.
Now, I am not alone in being extremely grateful to the UK Conservative Government for the immense financial support it has provided to you as a Government to support our businesses. The coronavirus job retention scheme is protecting 316,500 livelihoods in Wales, including 7,200 in Aberconwy. The self-employed income support scheme is providing support for 102,000 people in Wales and is worth £273 million to those who are self-employed, £6.3 million of that coming to Aberconwy.
For the UK Government's efforts to support Wales and Aberconwy to have the best possible outcome, the Welsh Government needs to enable the economic dragon to roar again. In fact, 77 per cent of respondents support the statement that the Welsh Government should develop a new economic recovery plan for Wales that puts supporting small and medium-sized businesses and business investment at the heart of their recovery plans.
As I've already proven, there is need for Aberconwy but also for the whole of Wales. The Centre for Towns report found that 28 per cent of employees in coastal towns are in sectors covered by the shutdown. Wales is the worst-performing area of the UK with regard to its economic well-being, with a score of -0.77. And we have a higher proportion of workers employed in industries most affected by lockdown measures compared to both England and Northern Ireland. I am therefore shocked that, despite the UK Government providing the Welsh Government with over £2.2 billion to combat COVID-19, the supplementary budget has only allocated £1.81 billion-worth of consequentials.
So, I ask: where is the rest of this money? You should be doing more to establish a COVID community recovery fund to provide targeted economic support. You should be amending the economic resilience fund so that businesses that continue to fall through the net can put a case forward for discretionary assistance. You should be urgently allowing bed and breakfasts that pay council tax to access grant support, and you must create business rate-free zones where all businesses will be free from paying business rates for up to three years. You should scrap business rates for businesses under £15,000 outside of the BRF zones. You must provide clear guidance to the tourist sector as to how accommodation can safely reopen, and it can.
You should be responding positively to calls by our business leaders here in north Wales for a £700,000 ignition fund to help reignite the region's economy. The ignition fund proposal is fascinating as it could see freelancers, the self-employed and micro businesses work together to develop and offer new products and services, as well as help to accelerate new major capital investments here in north Wales. Clearly, you can act to help the economy without having to pursue Plaid Cymru's suggestion of devolving further fiscal powers. I implore you, Minister, to carefully consider our proposal, and the ignition fund, which would see support reach communities that have been most adversely affected by this COVID-19 crisis. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. This is certainly not the time to be untying the links with the UK Government, because there's no way the Welsh Government could have afforded the coronavirus job retention fund, or indeed the self-employed fund, to which Janet Finch-Saunders has referred. So, I won't be supporting the Plaid proposals. But I think it's important that we concentrate on what we can do, and we need to do that in a way that supports the science, the safe scientific advice for unlocking our economy without seeing a second wave, which would, in itself, be completely disastrous for our economy.
So, looking at the Centre for Towns report, which is in the Conservative motion, I agree with them that we do need to engage with local cultural, leisure and sporting clubs to understand what they're going to need to start operating again safely. In many cases, I agree that these institutions are the bedrock of many of our towns, and we know that local cultural projects are effective ways of bringing people back into town centres rather than going off to out-of-town shopping. That's certainly been the experience of places like Neath, with its music festivals over the last three years. And certainly, as a representative of Cardiff, I'm fully aware that the huge events like Cardiff Pride, our big sporting events, the big-named concerts at the Motorpoint Arena normally attract people to our capital city from the rest of Wales and well beyond that. And I have no absolutely no illusion that now is going to be the time to resume those sorts of activities until we have a vaccine. So, we have to do things differently.
Cardiff city is famous for its independent music sector, not just Clwb Ifor Bach and other businesses around Womanby Street, but the Globe, the Gate, the Tramshed, and, until 18 months ago, Gwdihŵ, which was evicted from Guildford Crescent after a decade of wonderful music making to make way for developers. And I fear that it's inevitable that the vultures will be hovering now ready to swoop down on vulnerable businesses in order to sweep them away and put in faceless developments. So, we have to be alive to that and protect our town centres.
Last night, I bicycled down to the city centre to see the excellent work going on by Cardiff Council around Cardiff Castle to prepare it as this summer's cultural centre for music, eating out, sharing a drink and a catch-up with our friends. And using a castle close to the city centre is something that I think Caerphilly and Conwy might be looking at as a model, both being endowed with handsome castles in the middle of their towns, which could be used in a similar way. So, we can see how this will work very well for performances involving music, which are relatively easy to broadcast outdoors, but we cannot forget the wider arts.
What about the comedy clubs and the theatres that need suitable outdoor spaces in order to perform? The Romans and the Elizabethans managed to perform their plays outdoors; could our football club stadiums double up as performing arts spaces? Could we use their substantial car parks as drive-in cinemas? All our cultural institutions are under threat, and I fear that the town centre report is somewhat complacent in saying that the biggest institutions are best equipped to call for support, and therefore, we should all only focus on the smaller clubs and arts facilities being left behind. We know that our national cultural icons, like the Wales Millennium Centre, are also at risk, because in this country, across the UK,we rely on cultural institutions to get most of their funding from ticket sales. Eighty-five per cent of the Wales Millennium Centre's revenue comes from ticket sales, and it's predicted to lose £15 million from ticket sales, and another £5 million from commercial sponsorship and sales. So, I can't envisage how we are going to get that sort of money from the Welsh Government; we are going to be reliant on ensuring that the UK Government knows the value of our culture, and not just the cost.
So I do hope that we can unite on ensuring that our cultural institutions are safeguarded, and we don't see attempts to use this as an opportunity to ensure that cultural institutions are forced to be reduced in size, as we've seen with the BBC, where cuts are already being discussed for over 60 staff in BBC Wales. We really do need our town centres to be vibrant cultures and getting together, as well as shopping.

Russell George AC: I'm pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon. Llywydd, we entered lockdown as a United Kingdom and as four nations, and I believe that it's, sadly, deeply damaging to the Welsh economy that we're easing lockdown in a disunited way. Yesterday, we saw the Prime Minister announce an ease of social distancing guidance and reopening of the hospitality sector. Of course, that was relevant for England. And this will allow parts of our economy, in parts of the United Kingdom, to reopen in a cautious and measured way.
Now interestingly, all of the UK's chief medical officers were unanimous in their view that the COVID-19 alert level should be lowered. Now, I'm not for one instance suggesting that some of the decisions that Governments have to make are easy—far from it. But I firmly do believe that we do need a review of the 2m rule, and trusting our business community and the public to act responsibly, with common sense. So I think my message is: let's trust our businesses. And the feedback I get from my constituents, on a border constituency like Montgomeryshire, indicates that people are crying out for a unified and co-ordinated approach to lifting economic restrictions across the UK.
One of the key sectors, of course, of the mid Wales economy is hospitality and that industry. I notice a Bevan Foundation report highlights that rural Wales is amongst those parts of Wales with a higher number of businesses closed due to COVID-19. So, I just think that businesses need aspiration and hope, and they're crying out for something, and I just believe that the Welsh Government needs to be giving that leadership and hope to many of our smaller businesses in particular. Many hospitality and tourism businesses are ready to implement proper distancing and reopen their premises, but I think it's the uncertainty and the confusion that is putting our hospitality industry, sadly, on the brink of collapse. One example is the sad news that Castell Howell, one of our biggest food companies in Wales, has announced that it may have to make up to 700 people redundant if clarity and a clear roadmap isn't forthcoming from the Welsh Government at the earliest opportunity.
I think it's also important that I touch on the housing market—an issue that has been raised by estate agents with me. Again, many of the estate agents operating in my constituency work across the border, in England and Wales. And estate agents are, understandably, demanding that we have a UK approach, because people in Wales aren't able to enter a property unless it's vacant. And it escapes me why we couldn't simply have moved to viewings being conducted in that way in a unified position. Welsh homeowners are unable to sell, whilst English sellers have an advantage.
Another casualty, sadly, during this pandemic is the mid Wales-based Laura Ashley, which has been an iconic part of the mid-Wales economy for the best part of 60 years. Laura Ashley and her husband started that business just up the road from where I was brought up in Carno, employing 550 highly skilled loyal staff now, or that was the case at the beginning of the year.
I'm very pleased that the Minister brought forward a statement on this earlier this afternoon, so maybe that gives the Minister an opportunity to address how he thinks some of those who have been made redundant in recent weeks can be supported by the Welsh Government. I have to say, I don't think that the end of that company is particularly down to the pandemic; I think other issues were at play as well, but I'm sure that the economic confidence in Wales, which has been dented by the pandemic, has perhaps put a pressure on undermining the CEOs of Laura Ashley's ability to find a financial backer during the uncertain economic times. And the knock-on consequences of COVID-19 I think will be felt in every part of Wales for some time to come.
As I draw my remarks to an end, Deputy Presiding Officer, I listened to Helen Mary's contribution, and I'm sorry that Plaid can't support our recovery fund, but I did hear a lot of what Helen Mary said—there was much, I think, that we can agree on. Our country can't afford to fall further behind the rest of the UK, so I would strongly urge the Welsh Government not to micromanage the economy. We must have the courage to reopen our economy in a cautious and measured way. And I'll end with a phrase from Michael Plaut to Meirion Morgan in their recent report for Gorwel:
'The future of Wales doesn’t belong to the faint hearted, it belongs to the brave.'
Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

David J Rowlands AC: We note with concern the Centre for Towns's report 'The effect of the COVID-19 pandemic on our towns and cities', which suggests that the economies of towns in the Valleys and on the north Wales coast will be amongst the hardest hit by the pandemic. As mentioned in my address during the Brexit debate, the threat to our Valleys towns from the lockdown is very real. If we do not carry on interventions post coronavirus, perhaps for years to come, it could be that many of these towns will never recover.
There is evidence that many banks have used this crisis to accelerate the use of remote working, meaning that they may be in a position to close even more of their branches. They have shown they have no social conscience with regard to these closures, so they will base their decisions on pure economics.As they were an important catalyst in creating footfall in town centres, the knock-on effect for our towns of these continuing closures will be substantial. It is clear that only Government interventions, particularly for the foundation economy, will save these vulnerable communities. But we must act now—to wait will be too late.In his reply to this debate, could the Minister indicate any long-term interventions planned by his Government?

Angela Burns AC: Over these past few months, efforts have been rightly focused on the health impacts of the pandemic, but we are now in a position where it is also right that detailed focus, clear leadership and fiscal support is given to stimulate the Welsh economy. As we look to relax some of the more restrictive aspects of lockdown, it is vital that the Welsh Government not only provides effective support to ignite our economy, but also reviews our economic road map and commits to futureproofing Wales in terms of industry sector development. Therefore, I'd like to focus my contribution on two sectors that are vital to ensuring the prosperity of my constituency and neighbouring parts of south-west Wales, today and in thefuture.
The WelshGovernment has talked of the importance of building a new green economy, which will focus on renewable energy, sustainable business, and building upon the reduction in carbon emissions, which has been one of the few welcome consequences of lockdown. There needs to be more than talk. Developing a green economy is vital for our planet, vital for our shared prosperity and should build on wider understanding and acceptance of this agenda by most people. The Welsh Government has been saying this since I was first elected. I remember Jane Davidson and her report on green jobs, written by a lonely civil servant somewhere in Cathays. We need to see commitment to building a green economy and west Wales is in a unique position to take advantage of this opportunity.
Over recent weeks I have spoken to several businesses seeking to develop new technology and work alongside some of the more established sustainable energy businesses based along the Haven Waterway. Businesses such as Seawind, a company that is developing a unique two-blade floating wind turbine, which will have the capacity to be located far out to sea and hopefully manufactured and assembled in Wales. Seawind would join other innovative companies, such as Bombora, Tidal Energy Ltd, Marine Power Systems—and there are many others—looking to develop concepts and pilot projects in the south Pembrokeshire wave demonstration zone.However, Minister, I am concerned, in a competing arena, with demand for business support at record levels, whether these companies will be given the support they need to manufacture and be supported with their research and development.
You have said that you wish to create a greener economy, but if you are to be true to your word, when it comes to creating a greener economy, you will need to take tough decisions, take calculated risks in backing start-ups, invest in new technologies and provide the resources and access to support those companies will require. Would you be prepared to attend a round-table event to discuss with renewable companies in my constituency, both new and established, what support they need to mainstream their product and embed it into the Welsh economy?
And, Minister, if green is the future, then hospitality industries are the here and now and, with support, will solidify Wales's reputation for destination marketing in the future. This is an industry that's been especially hard hit from this pandemic and one that's felt the immediate impact of Welsh Government inaction when it comes to relaxing freedoms of movement to allow businesses to reopen. With the summer months being key to a seasonal industry, such as tourism, the lack of certainty over reoening and the effective closure of Welsh borders, to both visitors from other countries and those in Wales, has the potential to have a devastating impact on tourism, especially in the smaller microtourism sector who epitomise successful destination marketing experiences. Many can adhere to social distancing rules and provide visitors with a much-needed escape to Wales.
However, the difference in pace of openings between Wales and England is forcing customers to look elsewhere. Eighty per cent of annual guests to Wales have been before. Opening later than other destinations will jolt visitors into new habitats—habits, not habitats, but it is also a habitat, I suppose—forcing them to try new destinations they would not otherwise consider. Losing guests for one season is therefore very likely to translate into a permanent loss of Wales's loyal guests to other destinations, further impacting on an already challenging path to recovery for the sector.
Tourism operators of all sizes have also been concerned over the advice they were receiving from Visit Wales. I have heard of how businesses were being encouraged not to promote themselves on social media during the lockdown, as it may encourage visitors to want to break the rules and pay the area a visit. Minister, this is an arm of Welsh Government tasked with promoting Wales and supporting the tourism and hospitality sector. Providing advice to not continue to engage and develop relationships with visitors is an extraordinary stand. Wales should have been saying, 'Delay your stay' not 'Stay away'.
The impact of the Welsh Government's slow pace of action will not just affect the tourism industry, but it will also affect the viability of the local communities and nearby retail businesses. With international travel being ruled out for many this year, we have never had a better opportunity to encourage staycations, promote Wales as a destination and promote the environmentally friendly aspect of holidaying in Wales.
Minister, we want to work together to help Wales emerge stronger from the crisis. We recognise the value of rural Wales's tourism to the Welsh economy and we must ensure that no-one is left behind. We have some fantastic businesses in Wales—there's a load in my constituency—and we have the potential to develop more across all sectors. I urge you to back our motion today and to demonstrate to the people of Wales that by working together we can thrive as a nation in the years ahead.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates?

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I begin by saying that the Welsh Government very much welcomes this debate from the Welsh Conservatives? And, obviously, whilst we recognise that the coronavirus pandemic is, obviously, a public health and an economic emergency, public health does, undoubtedly, come first. This public health crisis is not over yet. As the First Minister has said, through the public's extraordinary efforts, we've succeeded in brining the fire of coronavirus under control. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, that fire is certainly not out, and the worst thing that could happen to the economy of Wales and the UK is a second spike, which is why any rational approach has to be cautious. And we've seen very worrying spikes in places like Florida and Germany just this week, and, of course, just this afternoon, New York has announced that it will introduce quarantines involving people from parts of the US where there is still a significant problem with coronavirus.
So, as I've said on numerous occasions, Dirprwy Lywydd, we strongly welcomed the support schemes that the UK Government has introduced during the course of this crisis. Wales is part of the United Kingdom, and it's only right that we receive a fair share of support for this non-devolved mater. And we sought to work very closely with the UK Treasury and with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, as well as with Scotland and Northern Ireland, throughout this economic crisis to draw on the strengths of being part of that collective whole.But the UK Government must—absolutely must—avoid a cliff edge when it comes to ending the furlough and self-employment schemes, and I think we all accept that the full impact will not be revealed until the autumn, when these are scheduled to be wound down.
Now, we're doing all we can to mitigate the effects, and our £1.7 billion package of support means that Welsh businesses have access to the most generous and extensive help for businesses anywhere in the United Kingdom. In addition to those sectors and those business types that have been assisted so far, we will soon be launching a start-up bursary. To date, more than 60,000 grants have already been paid to businesses in Wales, and the Development Bank of Wales's loan facility, created to help deal with the impact of the virus, has already allocated almost £100 million to more than 1,200 businesses. In addition, Dirprwy Lywydd, the second phase of our Wales-only economic resilience fund opens for applications on Monday. I should also point out that, here in Wales, small businesses with premises with a rateable value of less than £12,000 already receive small business rate relief. They've been essential lifelines that have safeguarded thousands of jobs.
But that said, we need to complement our package of business support by providing crucial assistance to people who might have lost their jobs or training opportunities because of the pandemic. This is particularly relevant today, given the written statement that I have issued regarding Laura Ashley in mid Wales, and, of course, we will be offering every available support to the affected workforce there.
Now, as I announced last week, we've taken steps to assist people who face job loss by offering a comprehensive package of support that will allow people to upskill and find new employment, so that we can protect a generation, and particularly the most vulnerable in our society, from the potential scarring of unemployment, and we'll use £40 million from our economic resilience fund to deliver this. But we also, Dirprwy Lywydd, need to ensure that this package dovetails with any initiatives that the UK Government might introduce, and we need to avoid, if at all possible, any duplication.
So, it's absolutely crucial that the UK Government also provides further support for people who are currently furloughed and those at risk of losing their jobs. And we'll be watching very closely when the Chancellor of the Exchequer presents his anticipated statement before Parliament ceases next month.
Now, of course, our capacity and our ability to get money to the front line has been constrained by the rigid financial rules imposed by the UK Government, as Helen Mary Jones has identified. There are strict limits in the extent to which we can carry forward funds from one year to the next, and we have a maximum reserve of just £350 million. Furthermore, around £700 million comes to Wales now from the EU, and whereas there are short-term reassurances from UK Government on aspects of this, we need to protect our interests in the longer term funding decisions, particularly in respect of a possible shared prosperity fund and future agricultural andrural development funding. Indeed, more than £0.25 billion of European structural and investment funds have been redirected to fund health crisis interventions during this pandemic.
Now, the risk of the EU leaving the transition period without a deal on our future relationship with the EU is very real indeed. All credible evidence suggests that there will be significant adverse economic consequences of such an abrupt and drastic change to our trading relationship with the EU. So, we'll hold the UK Government to promises made that Wales will not be a penny worse off as a result of leaving the EU and that the Welsh Government will continue to be responsible for deploying these funds in Wales.
Now, while we continue to wait to hear about that particular funding, our transforming towns agenda does continue at full pace and, earlier this year, we set out a further package of support for town centres worth nearly £90 million. I believe that this support is more important than ever before. Last month, we also pledged support for business improvement districts in Wales to support their running costs during the coronavirus pandemic.
And in the context of reopening our town centres post COVID, transforming towns funding is already delivering green infrastructure schemes. In total, they'll be worth around £9 million across Wales when completed. The funding is also supporting our coastal communities through the latest round of the coastal communities fund, which opened just last week. That fund is providing industry-leading expertise and finance for local authorities to address the issue of those empty and neglected properties that blight our high streets. Just last weekend, we also announced a further £15.4 million for COVID-proof travel, making it safer and easier for people to get around their local towns.
Towns across Wales—right across Wales—are benefiting from the range of transforming town programmes, including, I've got to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, the north Wales coast. Colwyn Bay is benefiting from over £3 million of regeneration investment, Rhyl is seeing huge investment of around £20 million, and, in Holyhead, a project worth more than £4 million has transformed the historic market hall. In addition, in the South Wales Valleys, the taskforce that's chaired by the Deputy Minister has met regularly since the start of the COVID-19 crisis, and is currently reviewing priorities in light of this pandemic.
Programmes such as the empty homes grant scheme and the foundational economy challenge fund will play a crucial part in the coming months and years and we'll be drawing out the learning from these projects to inform future policy thinking and also to feed into recovery priorities.
Now, the impact of coronavirus is vast and wide-reaching, but it could be a moment for fundamental change in our economy so that we can, as I've said on numerous occasions, build back better to ensure that our future is fairer, more inclusive and more sustainable.

Thank you. Before I call Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate, is there a Member that wishes a short intervention? No. Therefore, I'll call Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate. Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Paul Davies opened for us by emphasising that the coronavirus pandemic is both a public health and economic emergency, with high numbers of employees furloughed in Wales, the threat to jobs and the need to understand the challenges facing businesses, especially small and medium businesses. He talked about the structural inequalities in Wales that haven't been tackled by the Welsh Government over more than two decades. He talked about the lack of clarity in support for the tourism sector and called for a recovery plan to be agreed with the tourism sector and with public transport providers.
Helen Mary Jones said that Plaid don't oppose our call for a COVID community recovery fund and then said that it's not just about going back to where we were before, and we agree, and therefore, hopefully, you can support our proposal. She also, I regret, illustrated why we shouldn't take lessons on the economy from Plaid Cymru.
Janet Finch-Saunders talked about the numbers claiming unemployment benefit doubling during this crisis. Conwy have the highest percentage of jobs at risk in Wales. She was grateful to the UK Government for the financial support it's provided for Welsh business and said the Welsh economic dragon needs to be enabled to roar again.
Jenny Rathbone talked about this not being the time to be untying the links with the UK Government, about the need tobring people back into town centres and protect both vulnerable businesses and arts and cultural facilities. Russell George talked about the damage caused by the Welsh Government's disunited approach to unlocking lockdown, from estate agents to Laura Ashley. He said Wales can't afford to fall further behind the rest of the UK, and concluded that the future of Wales belongs to the brave. David Rowlands talked about the threat to Valleys towns, Angela Burns about the need for clear focus and leadership as we move forward, and the need to replace years of Welsh Government rhetoric with real action on building a green economy, and she said, if green is the future, hospitality businesses are the here and now. Economy Minister Ken Skates pointed out that the public health crisis is not over yet—no dispute. He welcomed UK Government support schemes, but spoke of the need for them to avoid duplication with Welsh Government schemes, when, in reality, of course, it's the Welsh Government that needs to avoid duplication with UK schemes. He then provided us with the usual long list of Welsh Government schemes of past, present and potentially future.
The Welsh Government's delay in the reopening of the economy has been damaging to the fragile Welsh economy. Take passenger transport, where the industry presented a proposal to the Welsh Government on 15 May that would enable operators to ramp up bus services with full costings, but they've still not received a considered official response and Wales is now the only country in the UK that has not agreed funding for transport operators to begin to ramp-up services to cover costs for additional services.
Take our bed-and-breakfast sector: in England and Scotland, grants are available to bed-and-breakfast operators who didn't qualify for any other COVID-19 grant support schemes. In Wales, however, legitimate bed-and-breakfast businesses have been denied access to equivalent grants. As one affected business asked me today: 'This was our main and only income. Could you inform Ken Skates, Mark Drakeford and other Ministers in the Welsh Labour Government that we're now at breaking point, physically, mentally and emotionally?' This is disgraceful.
Take our crucial housing market: the Welsh Government has failed to open the housing market in Wales alongside the rest of UK, where the rest of UK is taking sensible precautions to protect everybody. Take dental practitioners: in England, they've reopened with strict rules, but, in Wales, they've told me that the health Minister's written response to me last week can only be described as spin, and that most of the Welsh Government statements from last week were undone rapidly over the weekend by further backtracking statements and a change of process.
Take holiday let businesses: the Welsh Government has announced that self-catering businesses could reopen on 13 July, as long as they adhere to the Government guidelines. A decision will be taken about this on 9 July, and the economy Minister Ken Skates told north Wales media that comprehensive guidance has been put in place for the tourism and hospitality sector to ensure that the sector can be restarted in a safe way. But self-catering businesses are telling me, 'I've just spoken to our council and they don't have the guidance,' and asking, 'What are the guidelines and where do I find them?'
And finally, take our town centres. The Centre for Towns found that Wales is the worst-performing area of the UK with regard to its economic well-being, and that specific communities, including ex-industrial towns in parts of Wales, will need an effective support mechanism at a local level to support businesses to plan their recovery strategies, echoing the work of the Carnegie Trust.
Taking all this together, I commend this motion and urge everybody to support it, recognising that this pandemic is both a public health and an economic emergency. Diolch yn fawr.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The question, then, is whether the motion without amendment is agreed. [Objection.] There is an objection, and we'll defer voting on this until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Point of Order

Before we move to the vote, I'm calling on Neil Hamilton to speak to a point of order arising from last week's vote. Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd, and I'm very grateful to you for inviting me to make this point of order today. Last week, during the votes on coronavirus, I said that I was voting against, but, because my microphone was misplaced, you didn't hear my voice and therefore assumed that I wasn't present, and so I wasn't recorded as voting, and I'm grateful to you, therefore, for allowing me to put the record straight today.

Thank you, Neil Hamilton.

12. Voting Time

We'll move now on to the vote today.

As indicated on your agenda, today's vote will be conducted in accordance with Standing Order 34.11.Each political group may nominate one member of the group to carry the same number of votes as there are members of the group. In the case of a political group with an Executive role, the nominee will carry the same number of votes as there are members of that group, plus any other Members of the Government. Members who do not belong to a group or grouping will vote for themselves. I will, therefore, conduct the vote by roll call.
The first vote is on the first supplementary budget, and the motion is tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Therefore, on behalf of the Labour group and Government, Huw Irranca-Davies, how do you cast your 30 votes?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: In favour.

On behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar, how do you cast your 10 votes?

Darren Millar AC: Abstain.

On behalf of Plaid Cymru, Siân Gwenllian, how do you cast your nine votes?

Siân Gwenllian AC: Abstain.

On behalf of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless, how do you cast your four votes?

Mark Reckless AC: Abstain.

Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Against.

Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Abstain.

The result of the vote therefore is that there were 30 in favour, 24 abstentions and one against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Vote on NDM7335 held in accordance with Standing Order 34.11.

Huw Irranca-Davies on behalf of the Labour Group and the Government: For (30)
Darren Millar on behalf of the Conservative Group: Abstain (10)
Siân Gwenllian on behalf of the Plaid Cymru Group: Abstain (9)
Mark Recklesson behalf of the Brexit Party Group: Abstain (4)
Gareth Bennett – Independent: Against
Neil Hamilton – United Kingdom Independence Party: Abstain

Motion agreed.

The next vote is on the motion to amend Standing Order 34. The motion is tabled in my name. On behalf of the Labour group and Government, Huw Irranca-Davies, how do you cast your 30 votes?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: In favour, Llywydd.

Darren Millar, on behalf of the Conservatives, how do you cast your 10 votes?

Darren Millar AC: In favour.

On behalf of Plaid Cymru, Siân Gwenllian, how do you cast your nine votes?

Siân Gwenllian AC: In favour.

Brexit Party, Mark Reckless, how do you cast your four votes?

Mark Reckless AC: In favour.

Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Abstain.

Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: In favour.

The result of the vote therefore is that there are 54 in favour, one abstention, none against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Vote on NDM7338 held in accordance with Standing Order 34.11.

Huw Irranca-Davies on behalf of the Labour Group and the Government: For (30)
Darren Millar on behalf of the Conservative Group: For (10)
Siân Gwenllian on behalf of the Plaid Cymru Group: For (9)
Mark Recklesson behalf of the Brexit Party Group: For (4)
Gareth Bennett – Independent: Abstain
Neil Hamilton – United Kingdom Independence Party: For

Motion agreed.

The next vote is on the Brexit Party debate on lifting lockdown. The motion is tabled in the name of Caroline Jones. On behalf of the Labour group and the Government, Huw Irranca-Davies, how do you cast your 30 votes?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Against the original motion. Sorry, is this on the amendment?

No, this looks to be on the motion in the name of Caroline Jones.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Against.

Okay. Now, it seems to be incorrect on my part. I'm looking for—. Give me two seconds to take a time out. Ah, yes, it is on the original motion. I remember now what happened, yes. [Laughter.] It's on the original motion, and it's in the name of Caroline Jones. The 30 votes by Huw Irranca-Davies were cast against the motion, for confirmation. Yes. So, I move on to Darren Millar, and the 10 votes on behalf of the Conservatives.

Darren Millar AC: In favour.

And Plaid Cymru, your nine votes—Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Against.

Brexit Party, Mark Reckless—your four votes.

Mark Reckless AC: In favour.

Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: In favour.

Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: In favour.

The result of the vote therefore is as follows: 16 in favour, no abstentions, 39 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.

Vote on NDM7334 held in accordance with Standing Order 34.11.

Huw Irranca-Davies on behalf of the Labour Group and the Government: Against (30)
Darren Millar on behalf of the Conservative Group: For (10)
Siân Gwenllian on behalf of the Plaid Cymru Group: Against (9)
Mark Recklesson behalf of the Brexit Party Group: For (4)
Gareth Bennett – Independent: For
Neil Hamilton – United Kingdom Independence Party: For

Motion not agreed.

The next vote is on the Welsh Conservatives debate, and on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, then amendment 2 will be deselected. So, the first vote this time is on amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans. On behalf of the Labour group and the Government, therefore, Huw-Irranca-Davies, how do you cast your 30 votes?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: In favour, Llywydd.

On behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar, how do you cast your 10 votes?

Darren Millar AC: Sorry, Llywydd, can I just check, are we not supposed to vote on the motion first, as an unamended motion first?

No, we vote on the amendments first, and then we'll vote on the motion if it's amended or unamended at the end.

Darren Millar AC: That—. Llywydd, that's not what we just did with the previous debate, and it's not what we usually do with opposition debates.

There was no amendment on the previous debate.

Darren Millar AC: There was, with respect, Llywydd. [Interruption.]

Neil Hamilton AC: It wasn't called.

Gareth Bennett AC: It wasn't moved.

It wasn't moved. The amendment wasn't moved. It was—

Mark Reckless AC: Although Gareth tried to move it.

It was in Neil McEvoy's name.

Darren Millar AC: I do apologise. It is a departure from our usual practice in Plenary on a Wednesday, but I vote against amendment 1 on behalf of the Conservative group.

Okay. I'll review this. This isn't easy with three separate machines and only two hands—[Laughter.]

Darren Millar AC: I understand.

—and sitting on a sofa in Aberaeron. [Laughter.]

David Melding AC: Can I make a point of order?

Mark Reckless AC: Yes.

Yes. David Melding.

David Melding AC: I'm sorry, because there are many moving parts here. [Laughter.] But it has been our tradition to vote on opposition motions without amendment first. If that motion is then not agreed, then we vote on the amendments to the motion.

Yes.

Okay. I can hear Ann Jones also agreeing. Your microphone isn't muted, Ann. [Laughter.] But, since I'm having the advice of both David Melding and Ann Jones and Darren Millar, then I feel that the script that I have in front of me may be incorrect. I'm looking for some WhatsApp advice as well, and I've just received that. So, everybody is in agreement that I should take a vote first on the motion unamended. So, I call that vote, and the motion unamended is in the name of—you, Darren Millar?

Darren Millar AC: That's right. [Laughter.]

So, the Labour group and the Government, Huw Irranca-Davies,how do you propose your 30 votes?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: This feels like the Eurovision, Llywydd, but my 30 votes go against the original motion.

I've no idea how this vote is now going to be counted. I hope that somebody is doing it somewhere and is going to WhatsApp it to me at some point. I apologise for all of this. Darren Millar, on behalf of the Conservative group, how do you cast your 10 votes?

Darren Millar AC: I vote in favour of the motion tabled in my name. [Laughter.]

Plaid Cymru, your nine votes, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: We will vote against the motion.

And the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

How do you cast your four votes?

Mark Reckless AC: In favour.

Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Abstain.

Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: In favour.

The result, then, is that 15 cast their votes for, one abstained and 39 were against. Therefore, the motion without amendment is not successful.

Vote on NDM7339held in accordance with Standing Order 34.11.

Huw Irranca-Davieson behalf of the Labour Group and the Government: Against (30)
Darren Millar on behalf of the Conservative Group: For (10)
Siân Gwenllian on behalf of the Plaid Cymru Group: Against (9)
Mark Reckless on behalf of the Brexit Party Group: For (4)
Gareth Bennett – Independent: Abstain
Neil Hamilton – United Kingdom Independence Party: For

Motion not agreed.

So, we move to the first amendment in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: No.

No. [Laughter.] I could feel that that was incorrect. [Laughter.] I'm reading what I have in front of me; that's in my defence at this point. The first amendment is in the name of Rebecca Evans. If the first amendment is successful, then amendment 2 in the name of Siân Gwenllian will fall. On behalf of the Labour group and the Government, Huw Irranca-Davies, how do you cast your 30 votes for amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: In favour, Llywydd.

On behalf of the Conservatives, Darren Millar, how do you cast your 10 votes?

Darren Millar AC: Against.

Plaid Cymru,Siân Gwenllian, your nine votes.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Against.

The Brexit Party, Mark Reckless, your four votes.

Mark Reckless AC: Against.

Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Against.

Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Against.

The result is that 30 Members were in favour, nobody abstained, there were 25 against. Therefore, the amendment carries. I think I'm correct in saying that amendment 2 in the name of Siân Gwenllian falls.

Vote on amendment 1 to NDM7339held in accordance with Standing Order 34.11.

Huw Irranca-Davies on behalf of the Labour Group and the Government: For (30)
Darren Millar on behalf of the Conservative Group: Against (10)
Siân Gwenllian on behalf of the Plaid Cymru Group: Against (9)
Mark Reckless on behalf of the Brexit Party Group: Against (4)
Gareth Bennett – Independent: Against
Neil Hamilton – United Kingdom Independence Party: Against

Amendment agreed.

Amendment 2 deselected.

Amendment 3 in the name of Siân Gwenllian is the next vote, and I call for a vote on amendment 3 in the name of Siân Gwenllian. The Labour group and the Government, Huw Irranca-Davies, how do you cast the 30 votes?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: In favour.

The Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar, your 10 votes.

Darren Millar AC: Against.

Siân Gwenllian, your nine votes.

Siân Gwenllian AC: In favour.

Mark Reckless, your four votes.

Mark Reckless AC: Against.

Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Against.

Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Against.

The result of the vote, then, is that 39 were in favour, nobody abstained, 16 were against, and that amendment is carried.

Vote on amendment 3 to NDM7339 held in accordance with Standing Order 34.11.

Huw Irranca Davies on behalf of the Labour Group and the Government: For (30)
Darren Millar on behalf of the Conservative Group: Against (10)
Siân Gwenllian on behalf of the Plaid Cymru Group: For (9)
Mark Reckless on behalf of the Brexit Party Group: Against (4)
Gareth Bennett – Independent: Against
Neil Hamilton – United Kingdom Independence Party: Against

Amendment agreed.

I call then finally, and thank you for your patience, for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7339as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises that the coronavirus pandemic is both a public health and an economic emergency.
2. Welcomes the economic benefits afforded to Wales as a result of being part of the United Kingdom during the pandemic, including funding for:
a) the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme which is protecting 316,500 livelihoods in Wales;and
b) the Self-Employed Income Support Scheme which is helping 102,000 people in Wales.
3. Welcomes the Welsh Government’s £500m Economic Resilience Fund, part of a £1.7bn package of support for business in Wales in response to the pandemic, which is the most generous anywhere in the UK.
4. Notes that EU funding has helped the Welsh Government respond to the Covid-19 pandemic and further notes that without successor funding the Welsh Government will be unable to respond at this scale in any future crisis.
5. Notes the Centre for Towns report ‘Covid and our Towns’ and welcomes the cross-government measures the Welsh Government is taking through its Town Centre Action Group and ‘Transforming Towns’ agenda across Wales.
6. Recognises the important role that creative and dynamic town councils and Business Improvement Districts will play in helping town centres recover from the economic impact of Coronavirus.
7. Welcomes the experimental work being done through the Foundational Economy Challenge Fund to explore new ways of building resilience into towns and communities across Wales which can support our response to the covid pandemic.
8. Welcomes calls made by organisations including WLGA, FSB Cymru, Wales TUC, Institute for Fiscal Studies and Wales Governance Centre for the UK Government to urgently remove the fiscal restrictions that significantly limit the Welsh Government’s spending power to allow it to respond effectively to the pandemic.
9. Further calls on the UK Government to develop a significant economic stimulus package that can support the Welsh Government’s work towards a green and just recovery for towns and communities the length and breadth of Wales in light of the pandemic.
10. Believes that now is the time for the UK Government to devolve further fiscal powers to the Welsh Government so that it is able to better care for the people of Wales in light of the Covid-19 pandemic.

Huw Irranca-Davies, how do you cast the votes on behalf of Labour and the Government, 30 votes?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: In favour, Llywydd.

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, Darren Millar, how do you cast your 10 votes?

Darren Millar AC: Against.

Siân Gwenllian, your nine votes on behalf of Plaid Cymru.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Against.

Brexit Group, Mark Reckless, how do you cast your four votes?

Mark Reckless AC: Against.

Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Against.

Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Against.

The result of that vote, then, is that 30 were in favour of the motion as amended, nobody abstained, and 25 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is carried.

Vote on NDM7339 as amended held in accordance with Standing Order 34.11.

Huw Irranca Davies on behalf of the Labour Group and the Government: For (30)
Darren Millar on behalf of the Conservative Group: Against (10)
Siân Gwenllian on behalf of the Plaid Cymru Group: Against (9)
Mark Reckless on behalf of the Brexit Party Group: Against (4)
Gareth Bennett – Independent: Against
Neil Hamilton – United Kingdom Independence Party: Against

Motion as amended agreed.

As I said, thank you for your patience. I look forward to the day when we introduce individual electronic voting. It's difficult enough with weighted voting. When we move to individual electronic voting, we'll go to the next level.

But, for today, good afternoon.

Good afternoon to you all. Diolch yn fawr.

The meeting ended at 18:46.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Dawn Bowden: Will the First Minister provide an update on the R-value in south-east Wales?

Mark Drakeford: As the number of coronavirus cases declines, so the reliability of the R number decreases, particularly at a lower geographical level. Within south-east Wales the number of confirmed cases per day has fallen from over 200 in early April to 30 a day last week.

Russell George: Will the First Minister make a statement on support for employees who have been made redundant at Laura Ashley in Newtown following the announcement that management have been unable to secure a going concern for retail and manufacturing operations?

Mark Drakeford: We recognise this is a difficult time for the employees and their families, many of whom have been with the Laura Ashley company for very many years in mid Wales. We will provide all available support to those affected individuals in Wales, through the Working Wales and ReAct programmes.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the First Minister make a statement on the coronavirus-related 5 mile travel guidance in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government keeps all the restrictions, including the requirement to stay local, under constant review. Given the improving picture, Ministers will lift the stay local requirement on 6 July, if the conditions permit.

Questions to the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip

Russell George: What support is the Welsh Government providing to the charitable and voluntary sector during the Covid-19 pandemic?

Jane Hutt: As I said in my earlier response to David Melding’s question, on 6 April I outlined the Welsh Government’s £24 million package of support for Wales’s voluntary sector in response to the coronavirus pandemic. This funding includes both direct support for the sector’s response and support for individual organisations.

Dawn Bowden: Will the Deputy Minister provide an update on the delivery of community safety priorities in Wales?

Jane Hutt: We work closely with our partners, including local government, police and HMPPS to ensure our communities are safe. We have worked collaboratively to ensure there is a robust joint response to both protect people from coronavirus and keep communities safe during these unprecedented times.

Rhun ap Iorwerth: Will the Deputy Minister make a statement on the voluntary sector's response to the current pandemic?

Jane Hutt: The voluntary sector in Wales has been crucial to our efforts in fighting the pandemic. Delivering key services, co-ordinating local support and helping to guide our dedicated and compassionate army of volunteers. I’d like to say a huge 'thank you' to all our volunteers and voluntary sector organisations.

Questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government

Dawn Bowden: Will the Minister provide an update on the delivery of Phase 2 of the Homelessness Plan?

Julie James: We are working closely with local authorities, who are working at pace to draw up phase 2 homelessness plans by the end of June. We have published detailed guidance on phase 2 requirements to ensure no-one need return to sleeping rough and services are transformed across Wales.

Mick Antoniw: Will the Minister make a statement on planning policy in Wales?

Julie James: 'Planning Policy Wales' is the Welsh Government’s national planning policy and was comprehensively updated in 2018. It promotes the principles of placemaking and sustainable development. 'Planning Policy Wales' is kept under review and revised when evidence suggests change is required.

Questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs

Russell George: How is the Welsh Government supporting farmers in mid Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: Farmers in mid Wales and across Wales are eligible for both the new Welsh dairy support scheme and the various Farming Connect support. Ninety-eight per cent of farm businesses in mid Wales have also received their full 2019 basic payment scheme payment, worth over £82.9 million.

Dai Lloyd: Will the Minister make a statement on the importance of tidal lagoons in delivering the Welsh Government’s renewable energy objectives?

Lesley Griffiths: Renewable generation in Wales already provides on average half of our electricity. Accelerating delivery of our ambitious climate targets can support recovery from the impacts of coronavirus. Marine energy, including tidal lagoons, could play a part in delivering the energy ambition we set out in the 'Wales National Marine Plan'.

Darren Millar: What action is the Welsh Government taking to promote animal welfare during the Covid-19 pandemic?

Lesley Griffiths: We have issued guidance, working with the veterinary profession and existing companion animal welfare groups. We have also established our own farmed animal health and welfare group to specifically consider impact of COVID-19 on animal welfare. Promoting high standards of animal welfare remains a priority, despite the challenges we are facing.

Mark Isherwood: Has the Welsh Government made an assessment of how the coronavirus pandemic has affected those in fuel poverty?

Lesley Griffiths: The impact the COVID-19 pandemic is having on households already struggling to meet the cost of their energy is being assessed. This will be shared alongside our draft plan to tackle fuel poverty, which will be published for consultation by the end of September.